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San Diego’s pension fund expects to earn 7.75 percent a year
Made 4.5 percent annually over the past ten years
The City robbed its employees’ pension fund to help pay for the 1996 Republican National Convention. Government labor unions went along but later got their reward. In the early 2000s, the city council gave workers extra benefits that the City could never pay if the economy went south. It did — decisively. A federal government agency and several consultants lashed out at the bureaucracy for concealing the City’s woes from bond documents. Some employees were charged criminally but got off. Now the City owes the pension fund more than $200 million a year, rising to more than $300 million annually in 2014 and $500 million in 2025.
With property, sales, and hotel taxes likely to be weak for a long period, there is no way the City can pay these sums, although it will continue to raise fees, slash services, sell assets, cook the books, and perhaps raise sales taxes. Meanwhile, safety workers are retiring at age 50 and 55, some with six-figure yearly pension payments, while other City retirees are getting more than $15,000 a month.
Can this picture get any worse?
Why yes, it can, and is already getting so. That’s because San Diego is a microcosm of the United States. Many other municipalities and states have similar problems, and these pension commitments are considered to be locked in stone legally. Only a bankruptcy court could break the contracts, and any such decision would probably go all the way to the United States Supreme Court. Ergo, this problem will be around quite a while, in San Diego and elsewhere. That will put pressure on the already-ailing federal government to bail out states and cities. San Diego is a woebegone jurisdiction, but it has too much company to count on federal help.
On September 10, Orin Kramer, a hedge fund manager who is chairman of the council overseeing the deeply troubled and scandal-wracked New Jersey public pension system, wrote an op-ed for the New York Times. Kramer shocked New York by declaring it was essentially insolvent because by any reasonable accounting standards, the state’s pension system is underfunded by tens of billions of dollars. Kramer went on to say that public pension budgets are based on economic fictions, including excessive expectations of future investment returns and measuring assets “based on average values looking back over a period of years,” not based on current market values, as private sector assets are calculated.
State and local government pension shortfalls are $1 trillion, said Kramer. If governments used the same accounting standards as companies, the figure would be a whopping $2.5 trillion. Since private sector standards are also too lax, realistically government funds could be $3.5 trillion in the hole. Whew!
In a separate communication with me, Kramer said that when he took office eight years ago, he and his board decided that the state’s “actuarial expectations were bogus, and we would ignore them.” But media did not report the shocking decision. One reason, he feels, is that “the consequences of understanding the math involve addressing politically unspeakable choices.”
Yes, unspeakable. Example: the City of San Diego’s pension fund expects to earn 7.75 percent a year. It has made 4.5 percent annually over the past ten years — not even close. If it lowered the expectation to a reasonable 6 percent a year, then the City would have to plunk far more into the fund each year, and it can’t afford what it is putting in now. According to a recent study, even with an unrealistically high 8 percent expected return, Illinois, Louisiana, New Jersey, Connecticut, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Hawaii will run out of pension fund money in ten years.
Thomas Gober is a national insurance fraud investigator and forensic accountant who recently relocated to San Diego. “Accounting for pensions is very similar to accounting for insurance companies,” says Gober. “Because of the long-term nature of their promises, there are supposed to be significant checks and balances in place. But as with insurance companies, regulators appear to be asleep on the job; I fear their lack of diligence makes them complicit in the deceptions.”
He particularly mentions how pension funds hide liabilities. Says Gober, “Insurance companies and pensions both sit on enormous amounts of assets that are earmarked for liabilities — promises — far into the future. The temptation is great to delay recognizing those obligations until a later date — put off the bad news until it is on someone else’s watch.”
Former city attorney Mike Aguirre believes that Mayor Jerry Sanders is doing just that. In 2005, he set up a five-year plan for putting money into the pension system. In 2007, he even declared that the City was paying in more than was required. Then came the crash. The fund lost 4.7 percent in fiscal 2008 and 19.1 percent the next year. Sanders’s highly publicized personnel and pension cuts were in fact minimal. The present value of future benefits in fiscal 2009 (the last reported) shot up to $7.2 billion, more than double the market value of assets of $3.5 billion. The unfunded liability at that time was more than $2 billion, and the system was 66.5 percent funded, versus 78 percent for such pension funds nationally.
Now the mayor has endorsed a sales tax increase — something he said he would never do — to help close the gap. The proposal, which goes on the ballot November 2, promises spending cuts, “but not one of the [cost-cutting] proposals addresses investment policy or the pie-in-the-sky pensions,” says Aguirre, who wants more conservative investment strategies as well as more realistic pensions. “Raising the sales tax doesn’t make sense. We can’t bail out pensions 100 cents on the dollar.”
Powerful public sector unions are blocking reform. Since 1973, public sector unionization has grown from 23 percent to 37.4 percent, says A. Gary Shilling, New Jersey–based economist. By contrast, private sector unionization over the same period went from almost 25 percent to 7.2 percent. Public sector wages and fringes have zoomed. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, average wages in the public sector are $26.25 an hour, compared with $19.58 in the private sector. Government workers get benefits of $13.56 an hour, far more than their private sector counterparts’ $8.15.
San Diego’s private sector is a mere 5.3 percent unionized, while the public sector runs at 45 percent, according to a recent study by the University of California Los Angeles. Compare that with the state’s 9.7 percent and 56.1 percent, respectively.
Although San Diego’s government employees are less unionized than those elsewhere in the state, government plays a bigger role in the local economy. Government is 17 percent of the San Diego economy, compared with 13 percent nationally and 12 percent in California, says Kelly Cunningham, economist for the National University System Institute for Policy Research.
The irony is that while pension commitments to City of San Diego workers may have to be adjudicated in a Chapter 9 bankruptcy, money from Washington D.C. and Sacramento pours into the local economy, softening the blow a little bit.
Here's something you might be interested in.
San Diego’s pension fund expects to earn 7.75 percent a year
Made 4.5 percent annually over the past ten years
San Diego’s pension fund expects to earn 7.75 percent a year
Made 4.5 percent annually over the past ten years
The City robbed its employees’ pension fund to help pay for the 1996 Republican National Convention. Government labor unions went along but later got their reward. In the early 2000s, the city council gave workers extra benefits that the City could never pay if the economy went south. It did — decisively. A federal government agency and several consultants lashed out at the bureaucracy for concealing the City’s woes from bond documents. Some employees were charged criminally but got off. Now the City owes the pension fund more than $200 million a year, rising to more than $300 million annually in 2014 and $500 million in 2025.
With property, sales, and hotel taxes likely to be weak for a long period, there is no way the City can pay these sums, although it will continue to raise fees, slash services, sell assets, cook the books, and perhaps raise sales taxes. Meanwhile, safety workers are retiring at age 50 and 55, some with six-figure yearly pension payments, while other City retirees are getting more than $15,000 a month.
Can this picture get any worse?
Why yes, it can, and is already getting so. That’s because San Diego is a microcosm of the United States. Many other municipalities and states have similar problems, and these pension commitments are considered to be locked in stone legally. Only a bankruptcy court could break the contracts, and any such decision would probably go all the way to the United States Supreme Court. Ergo, this problem will be around quite a while, in San Diego and elsewhere. That will put pressure on the already-ailing federal government to bail out states and cities. San Diego is a woebegone jurisdiction, but it has too much company to count on federal help.
On September 10, Orin Kramer, a hedge fund manager who is chairman of the council overseeing the deeply troubled and scandal-wracked New Jersey public pension system, wrote an op-ed for the New York Times. Kramer shocked New York by declaring it was essentially insolvent because by any reasonable accounting standards, the state’s pension system is underfunded by tens of billions of dollars. Kramer went on to say that public pension budgets are based on economic fictions, including excessive expectations of future investment returns and measuring assets “based on average values looking back over a period of years,” not based on current market values, as private sector assets are calculated.
State and local government pension shortfalls are $1 trillion, said Kramer. If governments used the same accounting standards as companies, the figure would be a whopping $2.5 trillion. Since private sector standards are also too lax, realistically government funds could be $3.5 trillion in the hole. Whew!
In a separate communication with me, Kramer said that when he took office eight years ago, he and his board decided that the state’s “actuarial expectations were bogus, and we would ignore them.” But media did not report the shocking decision. One reason, he feels, is that “the consequences of understanding the math involve addressing politically unspeakable choices.”
Yes, unspeakable. Example: the City of San Diego’s pension fund expects to earn 7.75 percent a year. It has made 4.5 percent annually over the past ten years — not even close. If it lowered the expectation to a reasonable 6 percent a year, then the City would have to plunk far more into the fund each year, and it can’t afford what it is putting in now. According to a recent study, even with an unrealistically high 8 percent expected return, Illinois, Louisiana, New Jersey, Connecticut, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Hawaii will run out of pension fund money in ten years.
Thomas Gober is a national insurance fraud investigator and forensic accountant who recently relocated to San Diego. “Accounting for pensions is very similar to accounting for insurance companies,” says Gober. “Because of the long-term nature of their promises, there are supposed to be significant checks and balances in place. But as with insurance companies, regulators appear to be asleep on the job; I fear their lack of diligence makes them complicit in the deceptions.”
He particularly mentions how pension funds hide liabilities. Says Gober, “Insurance companies and pensions both sit on enormous amounts of assets that are earmarked for liabilities — promises — far into the future. The temptation is great to delay recognizing those obligations until a later date — put off the bad news until it is on someone else’s watch.”
Former city attorney Mike Aguirre believes that Mayor Jerry Sanders is doing just that. In 2005, he set up a five-year plan for putting money into the pension system. In 2007, he even declared that the City was paying in more than was required. Then came the crash. The fund lost 4.7 percent in fiscal 2008 and 19.1 percent the next year. Sanders’s highly publicized personnel and pension cuts were in fact minimal. The present value of future benefits in fiscal 2009 (the last reported) shot up to $7.2 billion, more than double the market value of assets of $3.5 billion. The unfunded liability at that time was more than $2 billion, and the system was 66.5 percent funded, versus 78 percent for such pension funds nationally.
Now the mayor has endorsed a sales tax increase — something he said he would never do — to help close the gap. The proposal, which goes on the ballot November 2, promises spending cuts, “but not one of the [cost-cutting] proposals addresses investment policy or the pie-in-the-sky pensions,” says Aguirre, who wants more conservative investment strategies as well as more realistic pensions. “Raising the sales tax doesn’t make sense. We can’t bail out pensions 100 cents on the dollar.”
Powerful public sector unions are blocking reform. Since 1973, public sector unionization has grown from 23 percent to 37.4 percent, says A. Gary Shilling, New Jersey–based economist. By contrast, private sector unionization over the same period went from almost 25 percent to 7.2 percent. Public sector wages and fringes have zoomed. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, average wages in the public sector are $26.25 an hour, compared with $19.58 in the private sector. Government workers get benefits of $13.56 an hour, far more than their private sector counterparts’ $8.15.
San Diego’s private sector is a mere 5.3 percent unionized, while the public sector runs at 45 percent, according to a recent study by the University of California Los Angeles. Compare that with the state’s 9.7 percent and 56.1 percent, respectively.
Although San Diego’s government employees are less unionized than those elsewhere in the state, government plays a bigger role in the local economy. Government is 17 percent of the San Diego economy, compared with 13 percent nationally and 12 percent in California, says Kelly Cunningham, economist for the National University System Institute for Policy Research.
The irony is that while pension commitments to City of San Diego workers may have to be adjudicated in a Chapter 9 bankruptcy, money from Washington D.C. and Sacramento pours into the local economy, softening the blow a little bit.
Comments
Safety workers retire earlier than traditional jobs due to the physical demands of job and subsequent limitations as the body ages. With average health, one can expect to work at a desk job well into their 60s or 70s. The same principle can not be applied to safety workers. For example, would you expect a 65 year old lifeguard to perform as well as one in his or her 30s or 40s?
I'm tired of the media and unappreciative citizens comparing the jobs/pensions/wages of office workers with high risk safety officers as if it is the same category. It isn't. These civil servants spend their careers in extremely high risk positions earning below-average wage and deserve more respect from our community. The council is using its own public employees as scapegoats for their own bad decisions. Leave the good guys alone and take a close look in the mirror San Diego!
Bullsh*t CDA!
THere is absolutely no reason the older cops can't work desk jobs, DUI checkpoints, parking viloations, etc.
And as for the comment you're underpaid - more bullsh*t. I know a guy, probably was #5 top guy for the police, last made 126000 per year and retired last year and will make 120000 per year. 120000!!!! per year. Way out of proportion.
With retirements like this, is it any wonder why you are NOT getting any respect from the community. No one in private practice retires with this windfall.
Thanks, Don, for providing the important distinctions between public and private unions.
Response to post #1: I don't believe you can make the case that safety workers have below-average wages. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #2: Average wages in the public sector are higher than those in the private sector. Average retirements in the public sector are FAR HIGHER than those in the private sector. I have published these numbers before, along with a chart. The source is the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #3: Private sector unions are so weak now that they should be taking Viagra. People I know scream about the auto, steel, rubber workers, etc., and don't seem to realize that they simply do not have the clout of decades past. By contrast, the public sector unions, greatly because they have no foreign competition, have loads of power, and often abuse it. Best, Don Bauder
Know what this public safety employee's definition is for "no community respect"?
"You sucker taxpayers don't want to pay me a six figure wage and pension, with retirement as early as age 50."
Personally, I LOVE my firefighters, but I could love them just as much for half the pay and a third the pension. It's a blue collar job that does not merit such opulent compensation.
After all, 72% of the ff's in America are VOLUNTEERS.
And don't stop with the ff's and police. Our retired San Diego city head librarian has a $227,000 pension -- not counting the half million or more in her city 401k plan (the SPSP plan). A retired 30 year 4 star general or admiral with 100 times the responsibility and a far more arduous career receives a $140K pension. This is absurd.
Over the long run, San Diego's public safety employees will be paid and pensioned at a rate that the market can bear. If this means issuing C- bonds and taxing residents out of town, then apparently that's where our city leaders are prepared to take us until the market in San Diego is much... smaller.
Detroit may not be the last formerly major city to consider shrinking its municipal boundaries to shed neighborhoods that generate no tax revenues. I understand that some people in La Jolla are getting ready to start their own city council; at least initially, they'll have no redevelopment agency skimming off their municipal tax revenues.
Safety workers retire earlier than traditional jobs due to the physical demands of job and subsequent limitations as the body ages. With average health, one can expect to work at a desk job well into their 60s or 70s. The same principle can not be applied to safety workers. For example, would you expect a 65 year old lifeguard to perform as well as one in his or her 30s or 40s?
By CDA
Another "Hero" with the "we're too old to do this job"...boo...hoo...hoo. Cry me a river.
Hey champ, I will find some work for you to do if you can no longer get out of your Lazy-Chair. Can you be a crossing guard. How about painting curbs, or cleaning up trash???? Plenty of muni jobs that need attending to.
And why should taxpayers be forced to support you for 40 years for doing nothing??
Construction jobs are 10 times as physical and 10 times more dangerous, you don't see them "retiring" at age 50 and whining like a 3rd grader when they get called out on their whopper lies.
These civil servants spend their careers in extremely high risk positions earning below-average wage...
By CDA
Please show me a private sector job that comps a 20 year old $200K before OT where there is no education or prior work experience needed, well except a GED.
LOL @ "below average wage"...you clowns are too much.
). A retired 30 year 4 star general or admiral with 100 times the responsibility and a far more arduous career receives a $140K pension. This is absurd.
By Richard_Rider
Whitman said that last night, I thought she said $149K, but close enough.
Unreal. A librarian getting more than a 4 star general in retirement.
Only in local and state gov!!!!!!
Response to post #7: You make excellent points, Richard. San Diego police and firefighter pay and retirements are out of line -- largely because an insolvent city can't afford to pay them. But if San Diego COULD afford to pay these amounts, they would still be out of line with reality. The absurd remuneration of safety employees is similar to the utterly ridiculous subsidization of pro sports owners. Twenty percent of sports fans are utter fanatics; politicians can't ignore them. Similarly, government employees pay attention to local politics and vote in heavy numbers. Pols dare not ignore them. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #8: Of course, La Jolla has had a town council for more than 50 years. I would not be surprised if La Jolla moved to separate itself from San Diego, but I don't think it will happen soon. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #9: Good point on construction workers. This is strenuous work and early retirements are generally not in the cards, particularly since so many workers change employers so often as bankruptcies escalate. There are plenty of other jobs requiring physical strain, and the workers don't get to retire at 50 or 55. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #10: Yes, "below average wage" is simply a misstatement. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #11: It gets dangerous in libraries. Machine gunners often come in and mow everyone down. Best, Don Bauder
Man I just wish the powers would just fix the mess and begin the process of bringing those who have created this mess to the stand. What I mean is get those politicians to stand before the man and explain themselves. We've done the dance with the SDCRES boardmembers, now let's get the architects of the disaster. I am personally getting tired of taking a beating for decisions that were voted and enacted long before I left active service and hired by the city. Besides I'll stay on the job until I can't do it anymore (probably well past 55), and that's how I am with my reserve unit and love every day I serve with some of the finest Marines in San Diego.
My2c
Gunny, as I recall you "retired" from the military with a full pension, and THEN went to work for SDPD, getting the military pension and the SDPD compensation- which is excellent in a good economy and as good as it gets in a down economy.. So if you were 38 when you started at SDPD you only need to put in 12 years in order to draw a SECOND pension.
You put in your time in the military and most certainly deserve the military pension, b/c as RR pointed out it is very modest and even low given the danger involved, but you are under no obligation to work past 50 at SDPD. You make EXCELLENT compensation. If you do work past 50 it is because you are happy, like it according to you, and also get to keep building the SD pension.
That is a deal 99% of the private sector would be willing to give their right arm for. You should be thanking your lucky stars......And the taxpayers for your good fortune.
Response to post #17: Those who created the mess are long gone from government -- having made fortunes elsewhere (e.g. Jack McGrory). Some of those who compounded the felonies in the early 2000s are around, but it isn't easy to find them and hold them to account. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #18: A lot of government workers have two or three or more pensions. Decades ago there was a guy who ran for governor who, as I recall, had three or four pensions and would get another when he left his then-current post. Forgotten his name. Best, Don Bauder
Sorry Pup, you got my career all wrong. I am not retired from the Marines. I am a CWO2 with 20 years (9 active, 2 deployed and 9 reserve), and am still serving today (staying until 25 or until I can't outgun my Marines). Won't see my DoD retirement until I turn 60, but do qualify for health and base privelages upon leaving the line. I was 31 when I was hired at SDFD (guess I am a cop when deployed?) and will probably serve 28 total years on the line, body and God willing. I am very thankful for my job and treat all who I contact with the respect that I was brought up to believe. I know that many think I am overpaid, undereducated and overcompensated. That is a right that I stood on a wall with a shotgun for and respect the opinons of all here. As I pay more into the pension I do wonder what the endgame will be and what will be left at the end. Like I have posted many times before I believe in pension reform, I watched my grandfather out on strike during the Steelworker wars of the late 70's for a quarter a month raise, and the final demise of the City of Pittsburgh, so I know 1st hand what extremism does and what the fallout can be.
Does the general public rely on construction workers to provide safety for their family on a 24/7 basis? Obviously not. It is not fair to compare apples to hamburgers. I'm not saying that there isn't room for pension reform in San Diego, I'm only stating that blaming the safety officers for the decisions of the city council is just wrong. The city employees do not have the benefit of Social Security or any of the other publicly available "entitlements", instead the city leaders decided to make marginally viable wage and pension promises during a strong financial market and when that market turned South (no pun intented) they began thowing stones at their own glass house. The police, fire and lifeguards serve the public and risk their own life and limb in daily support of the citizens of San Diego and compensation for such should not be compared to that of construction workers or any other blue or white collar job. Public Safety is an employment and risk class in and of itself. Compare San Diego fire, police and lifeguards to other major US city departments in the same capacity and you will see that San Diego is below average. Point your animosity and blame at the proper parties: not the day to to day workers who serve the public! For the record, here are some of the nation's salaraies for firefighters: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Fire_Fighter/Salary, and police: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_or_Sheriff%27s_Patrol_Officer/Salary
Also, here are some numbers to review median salaries in San Diego: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/City=San_Diego/Salary You will notice that construction workers (managers) make $80K average. Fresno police make more than San Diego police. My point is this: public safety officers who work the day to day in San Diego are not the cause (nor should they be blamed) for the pension debaucle. Best, CDA
Response to comment #10: Please show me a private sector job that comps a 20 year old $200K before OT where there is no education or prior work experience needed, well except a GED. ========================================== Please show me an example of an uneducated 20 year old in the city of San Diego that makes $200K before OT in civil service (with our without a doctorate, let alone a GED)? You must be drinking the wrong batch of koolaid.
Response to post #21: Pittsburgh lost most of its steel industry but the city did a remarkable job diversifying and maintaining the quality of life it had known. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #22: If one compares San Diego salaries with salaries elsewhere, in most industries San Diego comes up short. Why? Some call it the sunshine tax. San Diego is a very pleasant place to live. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #23: SP can answer this one. Best, Don Bauder
Don, just what is that quality of life you say P'burgh managed to maintain? My impressions of the place, all second-hand I must admit, were that is was a dreary, smoky place with a hundred bridges, potholed streets, ethnic rivalries, and seen mostly in shades of gray.
Response to post #27: Granted, Pittsburgh has always been gray, smoky, and bridge-sated. But here is a city that lost almost all of its one dominating industry, steel, but managed to retain and expand its financial base. The population came down, but people who lived there tell me that the livability ranks high. Admittedly, it is no San Diego for weather, but its finances are in better shape. By contrast, Youngstown, Gary and Hammond lost their steel industries and never recovered. Best, Don Bauder
Don, I believe that when the removed the mills, and I mean removed the mills, the overall health of the population got remarkably better. I have family there and they love the Allegheny Valley more than ever, heck the Pittsburgh Regatta by Point State Park is the biggest city blowout ever, well next to the Steelers winning, and the rivers are blue and clean. The hills are greener and the architecture has been able to shed over 100 years of yuck and filth from J&L and US Steel.
Response to post #29: That's what I hear. It's logical: the place should be cleaner without steel mills. However, a lot of high-paying jobs were lost as the steel mills shut down. Best, Don Bauder
Please show me an example of an uneducated 20 year old in the city of San Diego that makes $200K before OT in civil service
I did not say "makes $200K", I said "comps $200K". That is what he makes when including the benefits-like those 3%@50 multi million dollar pensions, DROP, SPSP, 13th Check and so forth.
SDPD has in the past, does today, and will in the future, hire police recruits to start academy training at age 20.5. They get full salary and comp in academy training.
But you're right, the 20 y/o won't be comping the $200K out of the blocks, not until he has reached his top "step" increase, which I think is at the 3 year mark.
So the comp is between $125K and $200K the first 3 years.
My bad :)
Does the general public rely on construction workers to provide safety for their family on a 24/7 basis? Obviously not. It is not fair to compare apples to hamburgers.
The public does not rely on the police for safety either, but it is your job and YOU'RE the one that brought up the safety issue, not me.
I'm not saying that there isn't room for pension reform in San Diego, I'm only stating that blaming the safety officers for the decisions of the city council is just wrong.
The pension system is the problem, and public safety is by FAR the biggest problem with the pension system, so yes, I will blame cops and firewhiners, for asking for and getting retroactive pensions they did not work for nor earn, at the expense of the poor, the needy and the elderly.
The city employees do not have the benefit of Social Security or any of the other publicly available "entitlements", instead the city leaders decided to make marginally viable wage and pension promises during a strong financial market and when that market turned South (no pun intented) they began thowing stones at their own glass house.
The City can OPT BACK IN to SS ANYTIME they want to (after they opted out), but the MOST you can get in SS is $30K, but not until age 67. You clowns are collecting 6 figures at age 50, so put a cork in the BS that you cannot collect SS. Biggest joke I ever heard.
The police, fire and lifeguards serve the public and risk their own life and limb in daily support of the citizens of San Diego and compensation for such should not be compared to that of construction workers or any other blue or white collar job.
Risk tyheir life daily..Hahahahahaha.....construction workers risk their life daily, and that risk is 10 times bigger.
Public Safety is an employment and risk class in and of itself. Compare San Diego fire, police and lifeguards to other major US city departments in the same capacity and you will see that San Diego is below average.
Boo...Hoo...Hoo...hey, I have an idea, if you don't like your pay or benefits, take that big bad GED out into the real world and get the best deal you can with it-how does that sound?
Point your animosity and blame at the proper parties: not the day to to day workers who serve the public!
I am-and it is ALL of you, ripping off the poor and middle class.
Fresno police make more than San Diego police. My point is this: public safety officers who work the day to day in San Diego are not the cause (nor should they be blamed) for the pension debaucle.
Then move to Fresno. Cops and FF's are the BIGGEST part of the cities budget problem and I am laying blame where it belongs, with them.
Response to post #31: A confession is good for the soul. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #32: I agree: police and FFs who believe they are being underpaid with an inadequate pension in San Diego should try to get a comparable job elsewhere. Best, Don Bauder
I'm a mail voter.
I voted no on Prop D last week. I will always vote no on things that Jerry Sanders supports because he is just trying to push this problem on to the next administration.
Sanders is weak and not a leader. He should be recalled.
Response to #32.
RE: The public does not rely on the police for safety either, but it is your job and YOU'RE the one that brought up the safety issue, not me.
As a matter of fact, public safety is NOT my job. You assume that because I lay a bulk of the blame with our greedy city "leaders" for the pension mess instead of the day-to-day public safety workers that I have something to gain personally. In fact, I am not a cop, firefighter or lifeguard. However, my husband was saved by a lifeguard when he was 7 years old in SD Bay, my mother was recessitated by SDFD paramedics in Mission Valley and my friend's life was (probably) saved by a cop who rescued her from an attempted kidnapping by a convicted rapist in Ocean Beach.
There is no denying that construction workers are sometimes at risk - but they do not serve the public. Miners, oil drillers, and nuclear engineers have high risk jobs too. However, since they are not civil service workers they don't really have a place in this discussion. Apples and hamburgers. Both tasty treats but not in the same food group.
Somebody owes me another apology.
Yes, but don't hold your breath.
Response to post #35: Prop D's passage would allow Sanders to get out of office before having to face San Diego's horrible financial situation. It would give him the two-year cushion he needs to pass the problem to somebody else. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #36: In comparing and contrasting the physical risks of various jobs, I think it is kosher to compare private sector workers with civil service workers. Best, Don Bauder
Reply to #36 Saving folks lives is great, but many of SD's HERO's are not high paid PD or FF's!
Volunteers, RN's (off duty), many "Regular" people with Life Saving skills all help out when needed so just because you have listed some personal examples does not mean that all those getting HUGE City Pay and Pensions deserve that and (if prop D passes) more!
All SD Unions should allow volunteer training, then hire from those volunteers FIRST; that would reduce cronyism, increase the number of trained volunteers and they in-turn would be able to help during major fires and other times of need. No more HUGE overtime payments can be tolerated in today's economic reality!
San Diego (and the entire Country) is now in a new reality where, what folks used to be paid, is no longer the "right" amount! Our City MU$T declare Bankruptcy ASAP and that is a mathematical fact! Bankruptcy will allow the City to re-negotiate both Salaries and Pensions, overhaul it's hiring system and that will allow the City to return to firm financial footing.
The vicious cycle of Big Unions supporting Politicians to get elected, so that those Politicians can then give ever bigger Pensions to the same Unions, is no longer possible or RIGHT!
Response to post #37: And now we hear a different view. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #40: Here's a thought: allow the FFs and police to continue to retire at 50 and 55, with the proviso that they work 15 more years as volunteers with no pay. If they are physically up to continuing their work, they can do so. If they're too lame, they can work behind a desk. Best, Don Bauder
Somebody owes me another apology.
LOL...yes, that apology will come when the GED cops and firewhiners start getting paid a market wage for their GED educations!
Or better yet maybe we will get lucky and they will all go apply for jobs in Fresno (except Fresno is not hiring, no one is).
I hear Fresno is a beautiful place, people even flock to it as a resort destination.....has beautiful beachs, parks and is the happiest place on earth!
Response to post #43: Fresno is no resort destination, but there is plenty of work for cops. Best, Don Bauder
Response to #45: http://instantrimshot.com/
Re 45 & 46: Let's try this one, then.
http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true
Response to posts 44-50: We're not supposed to abuse others. We're supposed to talk about the site content, not each other. I think we have violated some rules here. I'm guilty, too. Best, Don Bauder
Just what is the "mission" of government anymore? You 30 somethings or younger better get a grip on whats happening in this city. You are being turned into debt slaves and being played by all sides. There are four main players in our civic arena 1. downtown power elite 2. public employee unions and their academic backers 3. political elite (city council/Mayor) 4. ordinary working taxpayers. you should be angry with the first 3 groups and dissapointed in the 4th Currently we have group one that has been able to put forth building a new charger stadium bypassing a public vote yet gaining the ability to use public monies. The second group has been successful in loading the city council with their puppets and pirating the wealth of this city on their altar of wages and benefits. The third group brokers their power and curries favor with either or both of those first two groups. The 4th group unfortunately for the most part are either apathetic, cause oriented, single issue or just plain idiots. it is that misfortune that keeps the first three groups in power in the ever changing world of San Diego politics. Until the fourth group wakes up and realizes the first three groups do not represent their interests nothing will change.
Response to 52, 53, 55, and 56: I'll let you guys battle this one out. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #54: Excellent analysis. You might have included the mainstream media among those ruining San Diego by turning their backs on the travesty that has broken the city financially. Best, Don Bauder
You are correct Don. They went,and are still going,along for the ride. UT this morning endorsed prop D. That was a sure bet. I have a suspicion that this Kabuki dance called prop D was cobbled together at the last minute because the June 30th actuarial snapshot (markets were close to their low) showed a worse picture than had been expected. The pension debt is a death spiral. Averages $359 million average payment over the next 15 years and as you pointed out is based on overly wishful assumptions. The downside potential is far worse than is being discussed. BTW Appreciate the forum
Response to post #59: And the City won't be able to count on tax receipts from real estate, and probably from tourism as well. Best, Don Bauder
Reply #54, #59, #60 & #61 RE: "The pension debt is a death spiral." Pilots know what the result of a Death Spiral is and the crash leaves a big smoking hole in the ground which is not pretty sight! + I agree that $D is NOW going down very fast and using your list, here is what I think will happen:
Group 1: The Ultra Wealthy, will just change "Players" and continue to pull $trings, writing off any loses, while "Partying On" with Big $miles.
Group 2: The Senior folks will abandon $D with their maxed out Pensions or what's left of them, after Bankruptcy. Those still in the system will cling to their jobs while crying about how unfair the $ystem has treated them!
Group 3: They will battle each other to follow Kehoe & Atkins upward in Politics on the backs of the voters debt, while seeking favor from Group #1 and blaming the Debacle on the others in Group #3 and the "Past", without mentioning any names or finger pointing.
Group #4: These taxpayers will suddenly "wake up" and get angry once they realize that there are much fewer with jobs supporting all those that lost their jobs and everyone will have to deal with decreased Services. The Anger will increase as property values stagnate or decrease as the City suddenly finds the money to build the Guacamole Bowl with a Billion dollars of "Development" debt money , while at the same time it is crying poor to the voters!
In reply to #61. Evidently you're either Psychic or understand how history works.
Response to post #61: The taxpayers should be boiling mad now and it doesn't seem that they are. San Diego cannot pay what it owes the pension system. Yet the establishment pulled a completely deceitful deal in Sacramento so that taxpayers can build a football stadium for a family that is ten times better off financially than the City. Best, Don Bauder
Reply #62 Probably more of one and less of the other... + I'm thinking SD's next ten years looks bleak for everyone not Rich...
Reply #63 RE: "so that taxpayers can build a football stadium for a family that is ten times better off financially than the City",
By the time the Guacamole Bowl is done, I bet you the numbers are more like fifteen times better off financially than the City, because of inflation...
Here is a thought, perhaps the SD Leadership is now simply buying "Political Insurance Protection" by supporting the $TADIUM deal; in the hopes that having Wealthy supporters will allow them to stay in office despite obvious favoritism and or future Court Decisions...
Big Money + $pin = $D Political Power
Response to post #64: Ten years may be too long. Four or five is about right -- at least, as viewed from here. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #65: The establishment, particularly the real estate developers, don't give a hoot for the San Diego middle class or below. Remember, they are ILLEGALLY abusing redevelopment because they are not providing affordable housing, which is essential, and in some cases aren't eliminating blight. They have figured out a way to steer money meant for improvement of poor people's lives to the pockets of the very rich. CCDC, which is controlled by the real estate industry, not city council to which it reports, carries out this illegal mission. Best, Don Bauder
If any of us had any hope that the new regime at the Light News would make a real break with the local establishment, well, we need to hope some more. The paper yesterday came out with an endorsement of Prop D. I won’t try to recreate the tortured logic they came up with to justify that. Recently it appeared as if a big change, maybe even a sea change, was underway there in their editorial policies. Fuhgeddabouddit! What I cannot fathom is the way the paper has recently been very critical of pay and pension practices at city hall, especially the spoutings of Chris Reed on KOGO in the early evening, and this support. To my way of thinking, you’re either for ‘em or agin’ ‘em. There’s no fence to sit. But the paper found one it seems.
Response to post #69: The new U-T is trying to establish credibility in the community but may have destroyed it with that preposterous editorial Sunday. The battle in San Diego is between the downtown real estate interests that have twisted the redevelopment laws to permit the construction of buildings that benefit the superrich, and the San Diego neighborhoods that are suffering from a rotting infrastructure, lack of maintenance, shutting down of services, cutting back on safety, etc. The U-T wrote a startlingly disingenuous editorial coming down on both sides without ever saying where the money would come from. The U-T proclaimed its backing for the downtown library, convention center expansion and the massive subsidy for a Chargers stadium, but then went on to say it wants to see the neighborhoods flourish, infrastructure restored, etc. Frankly, there is not enough money for EITHER the asinine downtown projects or the neighborhoods, but the U-T elided that reality. What a joke! Best, Don Bauder
Reply #68 & #69 You both are correct! The UT and other media outlets have caved-in and are going to continue to support Business in the hopes of getting more advertising money! The On-Line Reader is the only responsible news source in San Diego and even that now seems to be having problems with Admin. Staff passing User info to their friends...
I'm 100% for SD and it's really frustrating to see just how our City Leaders are $PINNING the facts to stay in power long enough to protect their own Pensions... The Ultra Wealthy and their puppets are confident that they can pull the wool over the voters eyes again and continue to "Party" on the Public's dime...
Vote NO on D, Put Our City Leader To Work!
Response to post #70: I agree that the Reader is the county's only responsible news source, but I know nothing about our administration staff passing user information to friends. Best, Don Bauder
"and even that now seems to be having problems with Admin. Staff passing User info to their friends..."
You mind elaborating, unless this involves some feud between yourself and another user? I've found Admin. here to be nothing short of professional and helpful...
Response to post #72: I didn't mean to be hilarious. I meant to be informative. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #73: I agree: the administrative staff is efficient and helpful. Best, Don Bauder
and even that now seems to be having problems with Admin. Staff passing User info to their friends..."
You mind elaborating, unless this involves some feud between yourself and another user? I've found Admin. here to be nothing short of professional and helpful...
By refriedgringo
Jay Allen has passed my personal and private user info to russl.
So yes, the admin staff does indeed do that.
And he will eventually delete this message, like all the others when I call him out on it.
The Reader absolutely does not share "personal or private info" about any of its users.
Jay Allen Sanford is a Reader contributor. He does not administer the website and has no administrative access to the commenting boards or any personal information about users of SDReader.com.
Case closed.
Jay Allen has access to something, because he has said just that in the past, and has posted info to back that up, and russl has sent me information by private messsage that only a web admin has access to.
Case back open.
Response to post #76: I can't believe that happened. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #77: I am siding with the Reader on this one. I just don't believe it happened, and I think this is a good explanation. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #78: Repeat: I don't believe our security got breached. Best, Don Bauder
Believe it-it did happen.
Jay Allen himself said so in the russl meltdown thread.
Jay Allen most certainly does-or did in the past- have access to the server system.
Jay Allen was even claiming he knows who all the people are who have sock puppet accounts who post in the same thread using mutliple names based on their ISP addresses-you can only get that kind of info if you have access to the server system.
Even russl said in his post here, in this very thread (since deleted) that it was not a good idea to "anatgonize a Reader web admin.", referring specifically to Jay Allen.
So Jay Allen (and russl) have access to the server, or are getting their info from another Reader web admin, or the Readers Web Admin who has posted here recently is blowing smoke-it is one of the three though.
Either way, the system is being compromised and these web admins are violating the Readers OWN "terms of service". I know it for a fact.
Right now I am treating every connection to this website as being breached, my email, my pass words, my private messeges-everything.
Okay guys, look, having access to a server doesn't mean much. If Admin looks at comments, they are going to know only two things that people don't have access to.
First, they are going to know your email address. That is how you sign up for an account here to be able to comment. From your email address it is possible to know who your ISP is MAYBE, or maybe not.
Second, the server logs comments and likely stores your IP address. Again, the only thing this information reveals in the long run is one's ISP.
The only possible personal information that ADMIN could have would be your internet service provider and your general location. Your ISP cannot release any information about you without a subpoena.
So, even if ADMIN wanted to, other than the information that has been given here, there really isn't any personal information to be shared.
Response to post #82: What more can I say? Jay Allen is a contributor, not an administrator. We don't let our secrets out. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #83: Your explanation sounds logical to me. I really don't know exactly how the system works but I do know that the Reader guards the privacy of its contributors. Best, Don Bauder
Sheez, I go to read Mr. Bauder's (excellent) report on city employee pension funds, and find the comment thread has somehow devolved into storytelling time --
RE #77: As stated by WebAdmin, I'm a Reader contributor. I do not administer the website and have no administrative access to the commenting boards or to any personal information about users of SDReader.com. My only involvement with the website is limited to the music section, for which I do daily data entry RE the Local Music Database (band bios, "This Just In" breaking news, etc).
RE #76: I've never deleted a comment, and have no access to admin functions to do so. I've never had access to "personal and private info" via the website, and thus have never passed said info to anyone. Can't even think of a reason why I'd want to --
RE #82: I vaguely recall posting that Reader Admin can probably tell who has registered multiple screen names by looking at the ISP info, but that doesn't mean I'm privvy to that info. As for Russl supposedly "referring specifically to Jay Allen" when he posted about "antagonizing a Reader web admin," why would someone assume he was talking about me, of all people? That (wildly unfounded and incorrect) assumption by SurfPuppy is good evidence of how specious all the accusations are, not only regarding me but about the Reader staff, and the sacrosanct security of this website.
Someone simply saying "I know it for a fact" does not make true -- even/especially when they (conveniently) point to posts that have been deleted by way of "proof" ---
Now then, may we please resume the fascinating discussion RE Mr. Bauder's report on "Pension Woes: Not Just San Diego" ?
Actually Jay Allen, I do know it for a fact, and you did indeed pass information along to russl because I have a copy of it.
You did indeed, in the russl meltdown thread make public private user information, and I can go back to through your comments and find the exact one where you said that.
You did indeed say you had acces to the IP addresses and you did indeed say you knew who was posting from IP addresses under different handles.
If you have access to the server (and you do as evidenced by your actions) you have access to all the information in the server, including email and pass words.
I stand by my comment that Jay Allen breached the Reader TOS and the privacy of the users, and I have the private message from russl to prove that up. I have Jay Allen's own posts to prove that up. So it is a fact.
The only possible personal information that ADMIN could have would be your internet service provider and your general location. Your ISP cannot release any information about you without a subpoena.
============================ Refried, I never said the Reader received info from MY ISP.
I said Jay Allen has access to the Reader server, he passed private info he received from that access to russl, who in turn sent it to me in a private message.
There are several problems when this happens, because the Reader server has 1) your email, 2) your IP address and provider, and, 3) your password. What else has Jay Allen passed along? You have to presume if Jay Allen breached ONE item, he has breached all of the above.
All of these items are private info, and breaching them is a violation of any TOS agreement, as well as an invasion of privacy and the poitential for many civil and criminal acts.
SurfPuppy, I know nothing about "the private message from russl" you reference, but I CAN address my own posts. As I recall the comment thread you refer to, someone else said you had flagged a comment for removal, which you denied. I pointed out that such flagging isn't necessarily confidential, and I confirmed that I believe the commentator who was saying you flagged a comment. Judging from the way you still keep attacking and insulting that commentator, and now me, I still hold that belief ---
I can see where I may have been unclear by referencing "we" and "us," by which I meant staffers at the Reader. I AM a Reader staffer. However, I do NOT and have never had access to website controls, nor access to commentators' personal info, and thus I've never been able (nor wanted) to pass any such info to someone else.
When I said (speculating about users who may have multiple screen names) that every registered screen-name can be checked against the registrant's IP source, I wasn't saying that I had (or would have) done so - I was merely pointing out that it could be done.
Hope that clears it up -- I shan't be drawn into further debate with one inexplicably contentious commentator over allegations that I (and Reader admin, and I'm guessing anyone/everyone else still reading this time-wasting nonsense) knows to be untrue.
And now, back to the show...
Response to post #86: Good to hear your side. Best, Don Bauder
Response to posts #87 and 88: SurfPup, you are one of our more sagacious posters. I would hate to see you knocked off for pursuing this endlessly. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #89: I hope this is cleared up, because I am getting tired of it. Best, Don Bauder
Reply #91 & #92 Thanks to You Don for being sagacious too
When it comes to great Reader Blogging "You're the Man" None can champion Freedom of Speech like you can
Because the Reader is a San Diego Institution Everyone blogging just wants both Fair and Fast Resolution
Now it is time To end this Rhyme
from http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/np-star/2010/aug/26/rhyme-a-day/#c75025
Imagine being able to go to a "Town Hall" meeting and get to ask Budget related questions to the Mayor and his Top Officials! It sounds to good to be true, so what's the catch? Well the entire meeting is scheduled to last only 1 hour*!
What budget questions would you ask?
Here are my top two:
Why are you building a Billion Dollar Stadium Downtown while "Browning Out" the rest of the City and also proposing increasing all our taxes to do it?
Other than protecting your own Big Pensions, why are you trying to avoid Bankruptcy which will quickly "fix" the City's budgetary problems?
http://www.sandiego.gov/home/pdf/fy12budgettownhalls.pdf
Response to post #94: Those are two excellent questions. As a journalist, I would ask them of the Sanders administration, except no one in local government will answer any of my questions. Taxpayers should show up at these meetings and put these questions to Sanders or one of his staffers. Best, Don Bauder
Reply #95 Lets hope that more than a few Taxpayers ask these and other great questions at each of the upcoming "Town Halls"...
BTW: The link in #94 above has the upcoming "Town Hall" schedule.
If anyone can think of additional questions that would be most helpful for all the Taxpayers in San Diego!
The City's tactics of pitting one Taxpayer against another Taxpayers is a poor attempt to shift the decision problem solving onto the Taxpayers instead of themselves; (i.e.: Do you want to save Libraries or FF or Police or Park & Rec, BUT no mention of cutting Pensions or the Guacamole Bowl)...
As I recall the comment thread you refer to, someone else said you had flagged a comment for removal, which you denied. I pointed out that such flagging isn't necessarily confidential, and I confirmed that I believe the commentator who was saying you flagged a comment. Judging from the way you still keep attacking and insulting that commentator, and now me, I still hold that belief ---
Flagging IS confidential, or at least it was until you started telling the entire world who was doing the flagging. Flagging is not something that the pulbic here can see or has access to, despite your whopper lie that they do.
ONLY a web admin can see flagging. YOU went on and told everyone in that thread that I indeed was the one who flagged, and that you also had access to the IP addresses and aalso knew who was posting under several handles. Again, IP addresses are not public, only people with access to the server can get that info.
Do you want me to go through your posts and find that one, to set your amnesiac brain staight?????
As for your ridiculous claim that;
"Judging from the way you still keep attacking and insulting that commentator, and now me, I still hold that belief ---"
Oh brother, another BS whopper lie from you, but that is no surprise. You and .... russl have a hard time dealing with the truth.
The fact is russl had a major meltdown over a year ago over a silly, sarcastic comment I made, and he has still not recovered from it. He has repeatedly come onto the Don Bauder threads and posted NOTHING but negative comments about me, just like he did here in this thread, and has done repeatedly since his meltdown thread. But leave it up to a clown like you top try to flip it around and make me ouyt to be the bad guy!
And why not tell us this Jay Allen, WHY did russl, in this very thread, say it was a bad idea for me to call out a Reader "web admin", referring to you??????
So Jay Allen, here is an idea, why don't you put a cork in your BS, you breached the TOS, you have breached my personal info which I have already described, and overall you're a clown.
. I would hate to see you knocked off for pursuing this endlessly.
They can boot my account anytime they want.
I'm not going to let a loser like Jay Allen, or russl, come on here and lie thru their teeth unopposed.
Surfpuppy, I implore you...let go, and let Dog.
LOL @ Grantie in #99.
And a century snarf to boot. Woot!
Oh, it's nice to have you back. Congrats on the snarf! Don, a snarf is a significant post mark on an author's thread. You have been awarded this designation multiple times, and I give you props where props are deserved.
There's a high road, SP. Take it. The view is fantastic. It makes one forget about nonsensical transgressions that really didn't matter much in the first place.
Response to post #96: The Sanders minions are trying to save their own pensions. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #97: Isn't there another topic to discuss? Best, Don Bauder
Response to posts 98-102: Take sincere advice, SP. Best, Don Bauder
SP - don't let this happen to YOU!
Why pups don't surf the web: Can't stick their heads out of Windows... Can't help attacking the screen when they hear "Got mail"... Three words: Carpal Paw Syndrome... Saliva-coated mouse becomes very difficult to maneuver... Involuntary tail-wagging is dead giveaway they're browsing www.pethouse.com instead of working... Too difficult to "mark" every website they visit...
Hope this helps, pal. Keep on puppin'!
Response to post #106: We want SP to keep on puppin'. That's why we are suggesting that he get off this obsession of his and get back to topics we are discussing. Best, Don Bauder
RE # 107: Agreed. Just trying to coax him back to the smiley side of life.
I believe in the idea of a "Greater Truth"...
In our case, discussing what is now happening "to" our loved San Diego, is by far, much more important that a potential on line blogging battle, that might result in a lessened discussion due to missing knowledgeable bloggers.
I urge everyone to follow Deep Throat's advice and "Follow the MONEY"!
Our City needs all of US to promote for Fiscal Responsibility as few if any other news outlets are modeling the way for Taxpayers...
Vote NO on Prop D (for Dumb) and Put our Leaders to Work!
Response to post#108: I don't think he will ever be smiling all the time. Best, Don Bauder
Response to post #109: For starters, the money goes from real estate operatives to CCDC, which they control, and to councilmembers and the mayor. Best, Don Bauder
Reply #111 I believe you left out all the "Promoting" Associations like Walk San Diego and others that are pushing for more Density, Transit usage for the masses (but not them) and less quality of Life (i.e.. Less Req. Parking and lots of Low-Mod infill along "transportation corridors", instead of spreading Density to all parts of SD equally) thanks to big City Contract seekers...
Pension funding before City Services is now our Leaders Mantra...
Their $ELF Protection = No New Direction!
Response to post #111: Oh yes, there are a lot of "Promoting" associations that facilitate the downtown scam. Best, Don Bauder
Vote NO on Prop D (for Dumb) and Put our Leaders to Work!
By Founder 12:30 p.m., Oct 21, 2010
Well, it is over, Prop D has failed. Done. Caput.
Time for serious financial decisions.
I would suggest cutting FF/Cop salsry by 25% and putting into their pensions,w hile puttign all new hires into a 401K/DC or a modified DB/DC pension, like 1%@40, with a 6% DC match.
74
it's OK to be funny 2 Bauder...informative and funny...nice way to roll
99
or even let go let cat Grantie ;-D
no ...er..um..cats fight :-(
hahahahahaha
i want $200,000 a year
i got a GED..High School diploma...a Voc Ed degree...a BA and BS degree
and when i get it i'll share with the less forunate
u can now put me up for Sainthood
and i won't move to Colorado!!!