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Comparatively, Tech Workers Haul in Bucks in San Diego

If you are a tech worker wanting to rake in more money than your non-tech neighbor, San Diego is one of the places to be, according to a report by the TechAmerica Foundation. Five U.S. cities have the largest differentials between tech and non-tech workers. Third on the list is San Diego. Number one is Colorado Springs, where the average tech salary is $81,600, a full 103% above workers in other industries. The average tech salary in San Diego is $93,250, and that's 100% above average. There are 111,000 tech workers in San Diego. Qualcomm is the largest tech employer. Other cities with big differentials are number 2 Austin, 100% ($93,200); number 4 Sacramento 99%, $86,000 and number five Portland, Oregon 96% and $86,700. Tech workers in Silicon Valley and New York may make more than tech workers in the top five cities, but their differentials are not as high. Of course, average salaries in San Diego are held down by high employment in tourism, where pay is extremely low.

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If you are a tech worker wanting to rake in more money than your non-tech neighbor, San Diego is one of the places to be, according to a report by the TechAmerica Foundation. Five U.S. cities have the largest differentials between tech and non-tech workers. Third on the list is San Diego. Number one is Colorado Springs, where the average tech salary is $81,600, a full 103% above workers in other industries. The average tech salary in San Diego is $93,250, and that's 100% above average. There are 111,000 tech workers in San Diego. Qualcomm is the largest tech employer. Other cities with big differentials are number 2 Austin, 100% ($93,200); number 4 Sacramento 99%, $86,000 and number five Portland, Oregon 96% and $86,700. Tech workers in Silicon Valley and New York may make more than tech workers in the top five cities, but their differentials are not as high. Of course, average salaries in San Diego are held down by high employment in tourism, where pay is extremely low.

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Comments
173

Technology jobs still pay relatively high wages in this country. Technical degrees are perceived to be more difficult than other degrees and many of the individuals who earn them are foreign born. The company I work at has been hiring for technical positions, both contract and permanent, and very few of the new hires graduated from an American high school. They usually have a master and/or doctoral degree from an American university.

I wonder how long these wages will last. I believe that wages in the technical sector are higher in the US than in most other countries. I remember speaking around 2000 with a sales engineer that worked for a UK company and who wanted to return to the UK despite a 20-30% wage reduction. Maybe UK taxes had something to do with that, but his perception was that his "salary" was going to be lower. Many companies like Cisco, IBM and Alcatel-Lucent are opening technology and R&D centers in India and China. Some of that is fine, but it is only a matter of time before the basic technology will not be developed here. One country in particular is notorious for its lack of protecting intellectual property and selling products at a lower price with stolen technology. Most of the high tech manufacturing has already left this country. Like the iPhone says on the back: "Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in China." The unemployment rate in Santa Clara County (Silicon Valley) was 10.8% in November 2010.

Jan. 6, 2011

And, of course, many from India, Japan, and other countries come to the U.S. to work in technology. Cupertino, California, the heart of Silicon Valley, is now more than 50% Asian, as I recall. And it's an upscale community. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

Technology jobs still pay relatively high wages in this country. Technical degrees are perceived to be more difficult than other degrees and many of the individuals who earn them are foreign born. The company I work at has been hiring for technical positions, both contract and permanent, and very few of the new hires graduated from an American high school.

John, our universities are turning out boatloads of engineers, computer programers and others with technical degrees-many of whom are unemployed.

The ONLY reason you see co workers being hired who are not American is because the tech companies are paying the foriegners 30%-40% LESS thasn they would have to pay an American employee. MicroSoft and all the other tech companies hire these foriegners on H1-B visas- which are given out by the hundreds fo thousands and the tech companies want to get them by the millions-but they can't. It is just another way the country is shooting itself in the foot by outsourcing good jobs.

It is a scam to outsource these jobs based on cost, not a "shortage" of qualified Americans to do the work.

It is a scam.

Just like the farm labor, construction, hospitality and other skilled and semi skilled industries-They hire illegal immigrants so they don't have to pay a market wage.

Jan. 7, 2011

But the foreign-born tech workers are well educated and very savvy technologically. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

Surf Puppy has brought up some good points. But when it comes to the visas, they are almost unlimited. Though there is a “cap” on H-1B visas, there are also L-1, J-1, and other visas that are exploited to hire foreign workers.

I have been opposing H-1B visas for over 20 years. When I worked for McDonnell-Douglas (now Boeing) on a major defense program in 1989, they were brining over “engineers” from the UK and not hiring qualified Americans. Then it was more that they wanted a “captive workforce” that would not be able to “go on strike” like the unions could. They used this practice as a fear tactic to show the unions they had alternatives. I was a salaried worker, but very opposed to what I witnessed.

I returned to San Diego to work at General Dynamics and the bottom of the local aerospace industry fell out. After chasing jobs at Northrop, Lockheed, Douglas, GD and other places I was through with aerospace and went into computer technology.

In the 90’s I quickly learned that the H-1B floodgates had been opened on that community as well. I saw fraud and abuse with the H-1B system. Fake diplomas and credentials. People that did not know what they were doing and basically getting trained on the job. I thought that is what we used to do for Americans? Now it was train foreigners in ESL and engineering. I quit one job because of the policy on H-1B’s. I said it was unpatriotic. There are people who enjoy the H-1B employees, but they are usually management that have no more loyalty to America or Americans. They toe the company line and exhort how great H-1B’s are.

I have changed careers again and am not in high technology anymore. I am in real estate investments. It cannot be shipped overseas. Personally, I do not encourage any Americans to earn a degree in most engineering fields and especially not “computer science.” It’s hard enough you have to keep up with all the changes and new releases of technology and then have to watch wages slide because of the massive influx of cheap foreign labor entering the same disciplines.

The wage I earned at McDonnell-Douglas has not increased more than 10% in 20 years. My last job in IT has actually been static and slid in most cases. When you have Indian’s sending 1 million job applications a month to US companies and willing to work for 50% of what Americans are use to earning, it's "Houston we have a problem."

If you don’t want to compete with the tens of millions of people who think earning $20,000 is a fantasy come true, then don’t go head-to-head with the career path of the Indians - computer programming. Not only will computer programming become more automated it will end up being a minimum wage job in a decade.

Jan. 7, 2011

In the 90’s I quickly learned that the H-1B floodgates had been opened on that community as well. I saw fraud and abuse with the H-1B system. Fake diplomas and credentials. People that did not know what they were doing and basically getting trained on the job. I thought that is what we used to do for Americans? Now it was train foreigners in ESL and engineering. I quit one job because of the policy on H-1B’s. I said it was unpatriotic. There are people who enjoy the H-1B employees, but they are usually management that have no more loyalty to America or Americans. They toe the company line and exhort how great H-1B’s are.

============================== There it is folks!!! BINGO. First hand facts about how these tech companies are ripping off our country to pad their pcokets.

Thank you for a verified, first hand accounting of this scam. I could never bring your credibility and your first hand accounting.

Jan. 7, 2011

Just go up to Silicon Valley and walk around towns like Cupertino. There will be hour proof. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

There may be some high wage jobs now, but they will also vanish as time marches on. Only project managers, innovators, scientists (who can design and innovate), and exceptional software developers will continue to enjoy the high tech gravy train. The rest of the high tech community, and their wages, are in the cross-hairs of the CEO’s who will outsource them as soon as possible. IBM, Intel, HP, Motorola, Cisco, Apple, Microsoft, Texas Instruments have invested massive capital in campuses and research centers in India and China. What have they built in the US lately?

I advise people to look into careers that are difficult to outsource or in-source. Law, public sector jobs, politics, non-profit firms, museums, zoos, and trades; plumbing, electrical and construction management. Any job that can be performed in India or China will most likely end up being performed there within two decades. Choose wisely because your selection of career can be the difference between competing with two billion people (trying to pull themselves out of poverty) or just a few thousand locals.

Jan. 7, 2011

I advise people to look into careers that are difficult to outsource or in-source. Law, public sector jobs, politics, non-profit firms, museums, zoos, and trades; plumbing, electrical and construction management. Any job that can be performed in India or China will most likely end up being performed there within two decades.

You have posted up some very good info. I am with you 100% on everything you posted.

I will say that this-even legal work is now being outsourced to India. Yes, legal work.

More than HALF the ABA law school graduates today will never work as lawyers-the jobs are not there. More than half. The University of Michigan- a top 10 law school, one of the best in th antion, was allowing Indian law firms to participate in the "on campus interview" program for the sole purpose of hiring MI grads to MOVE TO INDIA to supervise outsourced American legal work. I kid you not.

You know we are in trouble and going down the toilet when that happens.

Jan. 7, 2011

But even some public sector jobs are gong abroad. Ditto for jobs with non-profits. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

"Any job that can be performed in India or China will most likely end up being performed there within two decades. "

It is a myth that there is an endless supply of highly educated engineers in India and China who will work for peanuts. There are also big costs to companies in terms of quality and continuity that are only just recently being accounted for when outsourcing overseas. Trust me, I have had to rework enough crap that management wasted dollars and precious time on trying to save a buck.

To SP, it is actually not true that colleges are churning out more engineers than we need. We are actually not prepping enough candidates in high school for the engineers we do need.

Finally, there have never been enough women in engineering, especially in software, and that is getting worse not better. If you have a qualified daughter and you steer her into engineering (especially software) she can write her own ticket. Every major company desperately needs technical women. My company is not able to hire women engineers because every talented woman we have interviewed gets multiple top offers from the big companies (and we pay quite well). Stay away from biology (the one science that is impacted and has lots of women) and any woman will do great.

I am conflicted on H1-B visas. In general when you bring very talented people here to work, the settle here and raise kids here and become American. That maintains a momentum that keeps our technology and higher education at a top tier level. If all those people go somewhere else (or stay home), eventually are technological advantage and top tier higher education will fade.

I would argue it is much preferred to bring in a relatively small number of highly qualified H1-B visa workers who will work at a discount (but still get paid very well) then to flood the market with millions of unskilled and undocumented day laborers.

Jan. 7, 2011

To SP, it is actually not true that colleges are churning out more engineers than we need. We are actually not prepping enough candidates in high school for the engineers we do need.

=======================

ALL thre data and reporting I have seen say this is nothing but proaganda byu tech firms and I don't believe it (I don't think you're lying, but I think we have very different views as to the reality of the situation-and Ponzi has related a verified first hand accounting that is in line with my view). . . . . I am conflicted on H1-B visas. In general when you bring very talented people here to work, the settle here and raise kids here and become American. ===================

You are making assumtions that are not valid-and that is #1) brining in talented people-maybe they are talented, maybe they're not, the only thing for sure is that they will work for 40% less than market, and #2) that we don't have people who are just as talented-if not more so.

America right now, and so far always has, dominates computer technology. China and India did not invent Windows, or Apple, or Google or Facebook or Amazon or Ebay. It all started here-WE HAVE THE TALENT, more than all the other nations combined IMO. OK, so I am a little biased.

Again, I don't buy any claims that over seas workers have more talent than US educated workers. In fact many of those overseas come here to get educated.

Jan. 7, 2011

One category of engineers seems to be declining: railroad engineers. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

"You are making assumtions that are not valid-and that is #1) brining in talented people-maybe they are talented, maybe they're not, the only thing for sure is that they will work for 40% less than market"

That is a pretty silly statement. Why would a company pay to bring a foreign tech worker who couldn't do the job? Do you think it is like picking a mail-order bride from a catalog, and all you see is a picture?

We have several foreign engineers ina small company and they range from very good to downright brilliant. They are also paid well. I honestly don't know what kind of work visas they have.

SP said: "In fact many of those overseas come here to get educated."

I don't get it. You like having good foreign students coming here (displacing locals), but you don't want them to stay and apply that knowledge for the benefit of American companies after they graduate?

SP said: "ALL thre data and reporting I have seen say this is nothing but proaganda byu tech firms and I don't believe it "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/09/10/businessinsider-engineer-shortage-2010-9.DTL

http://postnewsletterarticles.blogspot.com/2010/10/software-engineers-hard-to-find.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0218/p17s02-lehl.html

This one is my favorite. Read the article first and then check the date!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,889495,00.html

Jan. 7, 2011

There is little question that many of the foreigners who come here to work in tech, and others who come here for an education and stay, are among our most brilliant. Look at the heads of many of our largest corporations. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

I agree that more women should pursue tech jobs. It doesn't help that the then-president of Harvard stated that women don't have the intelligence for such jobs. That's nonsense. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

I agree that more women should pursue tech jobs. It doesn't help that the then-president of Harvard stated that women don't have the intelligence for such jobs. That's nonsense

Actually he said that there may be biological differences.

Woman all the time claim they are more "caring and nuturing" based on their sex so I think the hard wiring/biological claims are made on both sides.

Jan. 8, 2011

Like fly-paper, people like Paul will come. They want to defend their curry smelling buddies and make false claims that “the job transfer is a myth.”

It’s not myth Paul. Two million Indians a year send applications to IIT in India. Don and Surf Puppy are correct; law and other desk job are ALSO being outsourced to your mythical land. As I said in my post, and predicted, there would be some schmuck that would defend and excuse the outsourcing. Thank you Paul for showing up so quick and validating my claim, we need traitors to make history interesting.

As I have said, as a manager and lobbyist, I have dealt with this outsourcing phenomenon for over 20 years. I have dealt with the belt-way bandits, the CEO’s that have consulted with the lawyers who bend the rules to bring people over here that are obviously not qualified, the family favors, the fraud, the corruption and the dishonor of people who are support our democracy but throw every American under the bus in the name of greed.

I have seen it first-hand. I can testify to it in open court. If a court in America would ever have the decency to learn about its own failure to protect its citizenry. We would not need healthcare if we took care of and protected employment opportunities. We could all pay for healthcare then. But now we have to focus on welfare and other issues because our jobs are being stolen by cheap, desperate, third-world labor.

Jan. 7, 2011

Well said. And we are left with an economy in which consumption is more than 70% of GDP. As I keep saying, we overconsume and underproduce, piling up unsustainable debt in the process. And those wanting to get the economy going again, whether from the left or right, want more consumption, debt and speculation. In short, they want the disease to be the cure. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

Wow. Don, this was actually not well said by Ponzi at all. It was racist and insulting. He may have no clue about the word he called me, but if it was in english his post would be banned. Good job, Ponzi.

The second problem with Ponzi is he can't keep the arguments straight. He badly wanted somebody to attack so he picked me, even though he is not addressing what I wrote.

Ponzi, figure out the difference between legal immigration of qualified and talented individuals to the US and outsourcing jobs overseas and then get back to me.

Sheesh.

Jan. 8, 2011

I found it neither racist or insulting. Being against jobs being outsourced to low- and slave-wage nations does not deprecate the citizens of that country. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

Don,

As I said, there is nothing racist about opposing outsourcing.

However, are you really defending Ponzi's reference to my "curry smelling buddies" as appropriate and not the least racist?

The term "schmuck" is meant to be a bad insult and was intended as an insult in this case, so I am baffled how you can say it is not insulting.

The personal crap aside, Ponzi then just made a piss poor argument. I am not in favor of outsourcing and have never argued in favor of it, yet that is what Ponzi argued against. I don't particularly care bout the juvenile name calling, but I do get annoyed when somebody paraphrases me in a way that is 100% wrong, and then argues against the claim they made up.

Jan. 8, 2011

I’m going to make a case study here. Remember when people were paid a lot of money because they knew how to design in AutoCAD? In the early 90’s people proficient in AutoCAD were paid $30 to $40 an hour. Now I think its $10. The same thing is happening… with everything else. Everybody is going to be paid $10 an hour in the near future. It doesn’t matter if you work at In N Out Burger or program stuff for a website, $10 for flipping burgers, $10 for laying lead (AutoCAD), and $10 for slinging code. Welcome to “free trade.”

Jan. 7, 2011

But the CEOs and Wall Street moguls who thrust this code of greed on us will get $10 every fraction of a second. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 7, 2011

Don, great comment, But You left out our current (and out of office) elected Leaders:

Example:Denise Ducheny +$128,109 / (12 months x 120 minutes) = $88.96 per minute!

No wonder these folks like to have power lunches & Dinners. --> That way they don't have to pay for their own meals.

From: http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/20...

Jan. 8, 2011

Yeah, but $128,00 is peanuts when the average CEO of a S&P 500 company is making $15 million and a score of hedge fund managers make a billion a year. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

Paul, to understand my frustration and my passionate feelings about H-1B and other visa scams, you would have to walk a mile in my shoes. I am in a “gap” where American companies stopped investing in their own employees and began treating them like fixtures. Where apprenticeships and aid in advancing education were thrown aside and foreign nationals were brought in to replace the employees who were the progeny of the people who built “the greatest generation.”

The government that once laid down laws to end child labor, dangerous workplaces, permit collective bargaining began to offer ways to destroy the American middle class by allowing companies to import cheap labor. Why was the H-1B law created? Well, I know firsthand because my mother was a manager with the California Human Resources Development (HRD) under Governor Reagan. It is now called the Employment Development Department, or EDD. In the good old days the HRD and EDD actually helped unemployed Americans find jobs. They held workshops and had a database of employers with job openings. Now almost every office of the EDD is closed and they only do business via the phone and internet. Their role is no longer to help people find jobs, but just to administer unemployment benefits.

So what does that have to do with H-1B? Well the HRD/EDD used to be the gateway for the H-1B applicants. When an employer asks the Department of Labor for permission to hire and H-1B applicant they are saying that “they cannot find a similar qualified applicant in the United States.” That they have “ran advertisements and exhausted other means of domestic recruitment for the job and must secure the employee from a foreign nation.” Now you have to be out of your mind if you think that America really has had a shortage of 3 million engineers and computer programmers for a period of 20 years. Or that Americans don’t want to earn $40 to $80 thousand dollars a year. The politicians are successful at keeping the people focused on the migration of illegal aliens who take low wage jobs but the massive immigration scam of visas for engineering jobs is not on the general public radar. Yet those higher paying jobs are exactly why the American middle class is vanishing. Epilog - The corporations in America are lying through their teeth about not being about to find qualified people. What they are really saying is they cannot find qualified people “… for the wages they know they can pay to foreigners…”

Jan. 8, 2011

Ponzi, I actually know the recent EDD well. I hired a nanny to care for my kids from 2 until kindergarten. I am one of (apparently) the few who actually did it above board, hiring a very qualified, college educated english speaker at a real wage rather than giving my kids over to an uneducated, undocumented non-english speaker to save money.

I am sure there are abuses of H1-B and I am sure it could be improved, but I would much prefer bringing talented people from around the world to do work here, then to outsource the jobs overseas. If they come here they work and live here, interacting in the community, spending money locally and paying taxes.

There should definitely be some sort of wage control so that you can't dramatically undercut the market. I have no problem with that.

I am sure Big corporations do lie and bastardize the laws with lobbying. My small firm doesn't have the means or the clout to do that. I am not lying to you when I say even in the economic climate of the last few years it has not been easy to find qualified engineers for what we need.

Jan. 8, 2011

I am sure there are abuses of H1-B and I am sure it could be improved, but I would much prefer bringing talented people from around the world to do work here, then to outsource the jobs overseas.

I myself would prefer we hire for those same jobs from qualified Americans. And no matter what you claim Paul, I am not buying your claims that there are no qualified Americans who can do these jobs. This is even more true after Ponzi posted his FIRST HAND, verified expeiences with the issue. You cannot argue with someone who has first hand knowledge.

Your comments are mirrors of the claims Bill Gates makes when I see him on TV begging for more H-1B visa's.

Lou Dobbs reported on this H-1B visa subject extensively on his CNN show-and he used to outline how thie H-1B visa program was a pure scam. I am looking forward to when Dobbs new show starts up in a few weeks.

Jan. 8, 2011

"You cannot argue with someone who has first hand knowledge."

And yet you are arguing with me, so obviously your statement is false on its face.

Jan. 8, 2011

This looks like an area that Jerry Brown should tackle, along with redevelopment abuses. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

By Ponzi 6:15 a.m., Jan 8, 2011 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think this post is one of the best I hhave ever seen about how our gov has changed from promoting US employment to destroying it.

The EDD comment is so on the money. EDD USED to be an EMPLOYMENT AGENCY first and foremost-not a gov aid progam (BTW-for every $1 given out in EDD U/E benefits it takes $4 to adminsiter).

Ponzi is on the money (notwithstanding the curry smelling comment!).

Jan. 8, 2011

As you describe it, it sounds like the definition of "blight" that redevelopment scamsters use to steal public money for corporate welfare. There are so-called consulting firms that specialize in twisting the laws so that areas in good physical shape can be considered blight so San Diego can subsidize a hotel, condo, or sports palace. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

When people like me complain about the illegal immigration and the H-1B scam, we are called “racists.” I prefer to call myself a nationalist and a patriot. If you look at history, what successful nation invited an invasion from their competitors and ever survived or maintained its identity? We are under invasion by third world countries.

So are Indians and Chinese smarter than Americans? No. It’s just because they have such massive populations that the bright and hardworking are developed in leagues. Americans (misguided by corporate greed) no longer focus on their citizen’s education. Our individualist tendencies have made an environment where “everyone is on their own.” Chinese and Indians have learned that math and engineering are the keys to escape poverty. Just like an athlete can escape poverty by becoming talented, engineers can escape their countries if they can become good at math and engineering. Math is simply another language. It’s not something that requires a high IQ; it’s just something that requires a lot of practice. People find math boring because it’s not like reading a story. But when you have an entire nation emphasizing math in their schools and colleges on the scale that India and China have done, you are bound to have millions of math whizzes.

Chinese perform better at math for a simple reason; their language, their character set in their numbering system give them a head start. They are not smarter than Americans. But the “nature and nurture” they are gifted with exposes them to an environment that helps them excel at math. Indians are no different. The only reason that third world dump is producing better workers than Mexico is the language advantage. They were gifted by the colonization of Britain and the fact that most of them can speak English.

Jan. 8, 2011

"When people like me complain about the illegal immigration and the H-1B scam, we are called “racists.” I prefer to call myself a nationalist and a patriot"

No, its not when you complain about illegal immigration and H1B.

Its when you refer to people as "curry smelling buddies".

Jan. 8, 2011

Interesting that the Chinese language character set gives the people a leg up on technology. I had suspected that they are just more intelligent in math and tech. I don't think that makes me a racist. I think if you look at how well Asians are doing in tech, you have to wonder if they have a genetic advantage in that area. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

"So are Indians and Chinese smarter than Americans? No. It’s just because they have such massive populations that the bright and hardworking are developed in leagues. Americans (misguided by corporate greed) no longer focus on their citizen’s education."

I agree with this 100%. It is interesting that Ponzi now points out the true root of our problem, that we aren't producing the number or quality tech people that we need (SP, are you listening?). That is not the claim he made earlier.

This is a very real problem that I wish the government would take seriously and work to reverse. We need to encourage Americans to pursue the hard sciences and then fund the research and technologies to keep them gainfully employed so that it is a desirable career path.

Personally I think the sole advantage of the Chinese and Indians is numbers and incentive to rise out of poverty, not any language advantage.

The Germans, Russians and Jews as groups all do extremely well in science without speaking chinese or hindi.

As to Ponzi's "curry smelling buddies" comment, my foreign co-workers have been English, Australian, Italian, Egyptian, Iranian, Korean, Kazak, so not a lot of curry.

Jan. 8, 2011

To summarize, our lack of a strong immigration policy blended with weak border protection along with corporations tendencies to seek instant gratification by hiring foreign engineers rather, than develop domestic talent, is the recipe that is destroying the American middle class and eventually America (as we have known it) itself.

Jan. 8, 2011

Right On Comments The same thing is happening in Nursing, as Industry continually complains that there are not enough trained Nurses, when in reality there are not enough properly paid Nurses...

Jan. 8, 2011

I do think nurses, like teachers, are underpaid. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

You are blending a lot of issues.

There are not a lot of highly educated technical people sneaking in from Mexico.

I really don't know much about H1B in particular, and don't know the status of all my co-workers. Some may have green cards, or have other status. I know one became a citizen (but was then recruited away by Google.)

I do know that H1B visas are capped at about 50,000 this year, while there are between 12 and 20 million illegal immigrants (total). Its a different problem.

You keep referring to them as the same issue, and throw outsourcing in as well.

To recap, I think outsourcing is horrible for the country. I think illegal immigration is bad (but am in favor of a guest worker program with proper documentation, taxes and working conditions).

I am in favor of allowing talented people from abroad to come her for school and to work, be it green card, h1b or some other mechanism. It helps with the talent pool. It helps with the culture. I agree that wages should not be undercut so that there is no incentive to hire a foreign worker over an equally qualified native worker.

Jan. 8, 2011

We need the talent from foreign countries. But we don't need cheap labor. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

This is worth discussion. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

I am an electrical engineering graduate from SDSU (1984). For years I worked locally in the military contracting industry. When that field dried up (co-workers were fighting each other for temp jobs, without benefits, that had paid them twice as much five years before) I tried to migrate into private industry. I did soon realize that foreign competition was keeping wages down.

I have belonged to the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) since college. They have an employment advertising secion of their magazine, which specifically rejects job offers designed to enable H-1B visas. That is, employers write employment ads with specific field knowledge and class training almost impossible to meet. When no U.S. candidate meets the very stringent and specific requirements of the ad, for a couple of months, the company petitions our government to allow a foreign candidate that they miraculously found has the exact item knowledge and class training in the ad, to get an H-1B visa.

I eventually found an engineering field that fits my skillset. Field engineering, that is. Like a mechanic, I have to work with my hands, and my brain. Ironically, I've found, that many foreign born engineers are either not able to work with, or are unwilling to, get their hands dirty. Now I don't worry about an excess amount of foreign competition, and I get to solve problems constantly (that's what engineers do, they solve problems), and I get paid well.

Lastly, I don't like to pick on all foreign born engineers, just the ones with training outside the US or Europe. I defy those foreign schools to match my university education. I had to take numerous courses in college meant to broaden my learning experience (like psychology, history of art, music appreciation, the hispanic diaspora, women in film, ect.) I actually enjoyed those classes. I had many fellow students from other countries . I had no problem working with them after college, or competing with them for jobs. I think such a broad education like that should qualify anyone, foreign or U.S. born, for a U.S. based job.

Just cut back hiring foreign tech workers with foreign credentials. My solution would be to REQUIRE engineering licensing, much like medical licensing, for foreign tech professionals to get their H-1B visas. Let a recognized agency certify their education, and broad skills, obtained elsewhere, to get a job here. That PE exam is a killer.

Jan. 8, 2011

Great points and great idea on the testing,

although I would add that every person tested must submit to fingerprinting and ID matching at the test site as many foreign "nurses" use a smart friend to take their test for them because their English was so poor...

Once certified they had their meal ticket for ever in the US, and yet another American nurse was out of a job...

Jan. 8, 2011

Sounds like you have landed on your feet. Nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

Good comments with some valid points.

Many of the corporations “wire” their job requirements to a pre-selected H-1B candidate. The DOL knows what’s going on but there is political pressure to just overlook all the corruption. The longer you work in management in my field, the more deceit you observe. In one case I was exposed to what I would call, for lack of a better word, “husband and wife teams” of H-1B workers. They only come over if the recruiter can place both husband and wife. In the scenarios I observed, one of them was usually under qualified for the job they were placed in. The purpose was to get the prize candidate on US soil.

In one case Pfizer pharmaceutical hired a man whose wife was placed in the IT department of a bank. She was supposed to have two masters’ degrees and be experienced in the Java computer language. She was, against my wishes, placed in my department. She not only was not proficient in Java, she could hardly navigate the computer system, and she was supposed to have 5 years experience on. I did some investigating and learned her master’s degrees were falsified. Why do we blindly accept these fake degrees from China (a place notorious for counterfeit and stealing intellectual property) but give our domestic diploma mills such scrutiny? Because we have been conditioned to assume the “Chinese are smarter.” This is a fallacy.

The only reason her credentials were faked was to get her husband over into the job in the US. Was he qualified to do his job? I checked into that as well. He also had fake credentials. Even after reporting these facts to my superior we found it difficult to discharge the employee. When a lay-off came, she was retained while Americans were dismissed. I protested this and eventually, 4 months later, she was let go. She cried and pleaded with the HR person and my boss that she would be “deported.” I had no sympathy and told her that was the agreement with the DOL. Three years with a three year extension. But most of these people use it as a back-door immigration tactic.

I agree that we should have the most qualified people for our industries. I just feel we should train our own native born citizens first. Charity should start at home. All of the economic problems we wake up to everyday could be solved if we stopped the immigration and started a nationalist campaign to bring our own citizens up and into jobs. People are not born stupid or lazy. They are conditioned that way. We need to put forth an effort to invest in our own citizens, take pride in our own people and compete with the rest of the world instead of appeasing it.

Jan. 8, 2011

Fake credentials are a real problem. Employers should be more careful. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

Ponzi,

Your issue with the non-JAVA woman sucks for you, but has nothing to do with H1B. The problem you ran across is the same problem faced by companies big and small across this country (and every other country) every day; nepotism

The problem of tailoring a job description so that only one pre-selected candidate meets the qualifications is also SOP at companies and government agencies all across the country. It is not exclusive to H1B.

Jan. 8, 2011

Your issue with the non-JAVA woman sucks for you, but has nothing to do with H1B. The problem you ran across is the same problem faced by companies big and small across this country (and every other country) every day; nepotism

===================== You're claiming a FORGED university degree has nothinbg to do with the H-1B visa she was allowed to enter the coutnry with?? Come on.

That is a first hand account of the fraud that- IMO -runs rampant in the H-1B visa scam.

Jan. 8, 2011

Adding the H1B "in-Sourcing" numbers to the "Out-Sourcing" numbers makes it easy to see why our Country has MAJOR unemployment problems...

Our Country is now allowing our own Corporations to increase their short term profits by selling out at least 2 generations of American workers, which is going to create staggering problems both now and in the future so that these same Corporations can lower the wages they will pay their employees both now and in the future. As Americans become ever more desperate for work, our "good" jobs will be paying ever lower wages and our regular jobs will be paying minimum wages and poor benefits. This "Death Spiral" will also drastically reduce the amount of money paid into Social Security and put everyone at risk!

A good analogy is the City of San Diego selling off all it's assets now to fund our phony Pension System leaving the future citizens of our City with massive debt and a lower Quality of Life... Our Leaders don't care because by then, they will be most likely living somewhere else and enjoying the FAT Pensions they helped create...

From Oct.2010 http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/20...

Jan. 8, 2011

As we have said so many times, profits are American companies' ONLY concern. The attitude is that the stockholder is the board's only constituency -- to hell with employees, vendors, the community. It hasn't always been that way. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

I think it would work for companies to be solely interested in profits if some how the stockholder and managements compensation was based on a long term window (at least 10 years) rather than immediate profits.

I don't know how to do that, but the problem now is that we are trading future viability (by destroying our future workforce as well as our future customer base) in exchange for profits today. From the country's long-term perspective that is just stupid.

Of course it would be even better if corporations could a principle other than greed as the principle driving force.

Jan. 9, 2011

Surf Pup,

Ponzi is claiming that H1B visas are used to hire workers at a discount rather than using american workers. True or not, his example is a different case.

In his example Ponzi's company knew exactly what they were getting with the woman (not much) and weren't trying to save money on this woman at all. It was a package deal to get her husband.

I'm not saying it is not fraud, but it is a different kind of fraud that happens with americans as well. Simple nepotism.

Sorry, but that is apples and oranges to what we are talking about here.

Jan. 8, 2011

Those adept at forgery should find good jobs on Wall Street. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

Nepotism is a big problem -- in government as well as industry. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

Sorry, I am not a politically correct person. I had said what’s on my mind. Am I fond of Indian H-1B workers? No. I feel they steal jobs and I also know that when THEY open a high tech firm they routinely discriminate and fill their staff with more Indians. The comment about the curry smell can be verified as fact by anyone who has had to work around a shop where there are a clan of H-1B Indians employed. It indeed DOES smell like curry and it’s pretty annoying to the nose of people not acclimated to it.

Here are some other sources:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101127181624AAptNJO

Or just do a general search on the topic:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=_vwoTeb0H4eosAPzyqShCA&ved=0CBIQvgUoAA&q=coworkers+smell+like+curry&nfpr=1&fp=e8de98ca5b405b41

Do I hate them? No. I am angry with our government for not enforcing the laws, such as the H-1B rules. Of anything that would help America now, in this time of high unemployment, it would be to eliminate any importation of foreign labor. We can talk about “caps” on the H-1B, but it’s just one of many visas used. There is the L-1 visa that allows foreigners to work on US soil for foreign firms and not pay any US income tax. Many people have never heard of the L-1 Visa, but it is used primarily by Indian firms (like Tata) to outsource American jobs ON OUR VERY SOIL. In other words, the work is still done in the USA but by foreign nationals and at wages those foreign companies pay that are not regulated by the US DOL. Foreigners also use E-3, J-1, and H-2B to gain employment in the US. There is a whole industry of lawyers and application preparation specialist that package the person for easy DOL approval.

The H-1B program used to be used for "real" specialists. Like back when there were few sushi chefs, or we needed language translators, or scientists who specialized in a specific field. Now we act as if every java or web page programmer with 3 years experience is some kind of “expertise” that we can’t find in the US. It’s a lie and a scam and it’s stagnating wages for everyone who has to compete with the cheap labor.

There are other considerations as well. We are actually doing countries like China and India a disservice by causing a “brain drain” for their economies. If we are taking their best and brightest, how will they develop their economies? Draining them of their best human resources is just like poaching their natural resources.

Jan. 8, 2011

Great info on a problem most folks do not know exists! I bet most americans know nothing about Foreigners also using E-3, J-1, and H-2B to gain employment in the US.

RE: We are actually doing countries like China and India a disservice by causing a “brain drain” for their economies.

I think we are training all these folks so that when they return to their own Country, they will be better prepared to help their own Country compete against the US + every job they take will only make it that much harder for Americans to get the education and training they need to allow them to be competitive in our future job market...

Jan. 8, 2011

Good point. We are causing a brain drain from those countries. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

What is happening is they are being trained here, to go back and manage over there. As the corporate turncoats like Microsoft, Apple, IBM, Cisco, Intel, Motorola, Sun and others build office campuses in India and China, they are training Indians and Chinese here. When they return, they have the language and management culture down to deploy overseas.

Wonder where all the hiring is going on? Where did all the jobs go that were shed during the recession? Why those jobs are not coming back? Because all the hiring by American corporations is being done in India, China and the Eastern European (ex-Soviet) nations.

Our manufacturing is almost all gone and in time all of our software development, design, engineering, and other white collar jobs are going to follow. I used to laugh at Ross Perot when he talked about the “great sucking sound” but he was right on the money and ahead of his time.

Jan. 8, 2011

Funny, I was just thinking the other day that Ross Perot was definitely prescient. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

Bullseye!

Workers in the US better start training for jobs that cannot be done anywhere but here: Plumbers, Electricians and other trade jobs will be the most sought after jobs beside Police and Fire Fighters...

I would suggest using Mexico as a case study and find out what positions are the best paying there because those same jobs will also "survive" being Out-Sourced in America!

Jan. 9, 2011

I used to laugh at Ross Perot when he talked about the “great sucking sound” but he was right on the money and ahead of his time.

============================ I posted this here a week or two ago-it is H. Ross Perot debating Al Gore on NAFTA, and Gore is claiming it will increase jobs (it did-in MEXICO) while Perot says the opposite-Perot was 100% correct on every point mentioned, and Gore was 100% WRONG. Pay close ATTENTION to Perot when he says "countries that do not manufacture goods have no money, they cannot buy goods from others", he was referring to Mexico, but that is us today. ;

. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhwhMXOxHTg .

Jan. 10, 2011
  • Right after NAFTA was approved in the USA, Mexico changed the value of their Peso big time...
Jan. 10, 2011

It wasn't the first time they peso's value had been changed. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

Yes, but changing the value of the Peso right after NAFTA was approved insured that trade would mostly be one way, in Mexico's favor!

BTW The Peso has been doing better than the Canadian Dollar against the US Dollar 12.2 today

Jan. 11, 2011
  • Right after NAFTA was approved in the USA, Mexico changed the value of their Peso big time...

================= Of course! NAFTA was a major mistake-that is beyond argument today.

Jan. 11, 2011

Good point: underproduction and overconsumption redux. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

Ponzi said: "What is happening is they are being trained here, to go back and manage over there. As the corporate turncoats like Microsoft, Apple, IBM, Cisco, Intel, Motorola, Sun and others build office campuses in India and China, they are training Indians and Chinese here. When they return, they have the language and management culture down to deploy overseas."

Ponzi also said: "There are other considerations as well. We are actually doing countries like China and India a disservice by causing a “brain drain” for their economies. If we are taking their best and brightest, how will they develop their economies?"

Well, we have now come full circle. If you argue long enough and argue in favor of all sides, then you must be correct somewhere along the line, right?

Jan. 8, 2011

Whether or not we have come full circle, this colloquy has been one of our most interesting in some time. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 8, 2011

Whether or not we have come full circle, this colloquy has been one of our most interesting in some time. Best, Don Bauder

=================================

This debate should be printed out and overnighted to Obama and his clown advisors.

They should invite ALL OF US to the WH for an economic summitt.

I am positive the people posting on this forum know more about rubber hitting the road economics than anyone on the WH staff, and face it we ALL know more than that gas bag Ben Bernanke.

Jan. 10, 2011

Bernanke's forecasts have been very poor. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

Bernanke's forecasts have been very poor.

Very poor is too kind.

Down right lies and fabrications is more in line with his comments IMO.

Jan. 11, 2011

A STEM degree requires more intelligence to begin with, more work to learn the material (more course hours, class-room time, labs, after-hours work, etc.), and more expensive books and materials and classes. Of course, those who are good at it should be paid more than average. In fact, since the very best can produce more than the next 12, they should be paid quite a bit more.

Some guest-workers are well-educated at US tax-victim expense. Most are savvy BSers. Very few are actually bright. Most guest-workers are in the bottom quartile according to US DoL, and an examination of the job descriptions and pay show that even the near-best of them are doing mediocre work at mediocre tasks. Even those sponsored for green cards are typically paid only 1.001 times the median, while Tata's Vandrevala admitted that they're typically paid 25%-35% below US local market compensation.

We need to bar those mediocre visa applicants, and pick the genuinely best and brightest -- the top 0.5% -- for admission to our universities and guest-work opportunities.

Dozens of university/academic studies show we've long been producing as many as 3 times the number of US citizen STEM workers demanded for STEM work.

graphs of numbers of degrees earned (US DoE NCES), pay (not total compensation), employment, unemployment, duration of unemployment, BLS IT and STEM work-force estimates, etc.: http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html

Jan. 10, 2011

I don't know that your numbers are correct, but I can't refute them either. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

"The attitude is that the stockholder is the board's only constituency"

Close. The board and C*Os are their own constituency. Look at how hard they've struggled over the last 8 years or so against even token, symbolic, advisory stock-owner votes on approval/rejection of board and executive compensation packages, and opportunity to nominate candidates for the board.

Look at the scams to pump up the stock value temporarily so that the executives get their "performance" bonuses, and then let that value drop back to something closer to market values. Come to think of it, look at the performance bonuses they've gotten as stock prices plummeted.

Jan. 10, 2011

You are absolutely right on that: earnings and stock values are inflated temporarily to permit bonuses for the top executives. The SEC should be cracking down on that. I doubt it will. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

Some time back I touched base with some economists of my acquaintance. One was in VietNam when I wrote, and observed that Intel had with much fanfare announced they were going to open a facility there to employ several thousand. They placed ads and got tens of thousands of applicants for EE positions. None of them were remotely up to snuff. But they had expected that. They took less than a handful to begin training. The workers are so cheap that the execs planned on a series of recruiting "events", spread over years, and selection of a fraction of one percent of the best of the low-quality applicants, and a huge investment in training there over a period of years before the factory would be ready to begin operation. These days, a chip fab costs a couple billion dollars, but they get land grants and 10 and 20 year tax breaks to place them in various places in Asia, but are strictly held to agreements on numbers of local citizens they have to hire.

USA states have been known to hand out $19M in incentives and then openly allow the facility to be staffed by guest-workers, albeit graduated from "local colleges", and in far lower numbers than promised in the original deal. IOW, they're free and easy with US tax-victims' money and resources to subsidize firms typically from Indian and Red China.

Jan. 10, 2011

"I don't get it. You like having good foreign students coming here (displacing locals), but you don't want them to stay and apply that knowledge for the benefit of American companies after they graduate?"

You're mistaken from the start. I like having a few hundred of the very best foreign students each year immigrate to the USA after getting at least the equivalent of a BS abroad.

I do not like the vastly excessive flood of hundreds of thousands per year of mediocre (and worse) foreign students (and exchange visitors) we've seen over the last 50 years. (And we definitely do not need any more Farooque Ahmeds or Faisal Shahzads!)

I do not like the massive transfer of knowledge, intellectual property, defense secrets, and advanced capital equipment (machine tools, chip-making equipment, computers, night-vision...) and billions of dollars of financial investment from the USA to Red China and India, which is facilitated by the wide-open student and exchange visas, internship, guest-work, off-shoring pipe-line.

Jan. 10, 2011

Again, I can neither gainsay nor bless what you say. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

You make a point: when we export jobs to low- and slave-wage countries, we also send them knowledge, secrets, equipment, etc. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

"The DOL requires employers to pay wages that are at least equal to the actual wage paid to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job, pay the prevailing wage for the job, whichever is greater."

That's not quite honest. They are supposedly required to pay the "prevailing wage", but "prevailing wage" is a term of art and not what it is intended to seem to the public to mean, not the actual local market compensation for the specific work, experience, credentials, etc. It's by the "job title", and not linked to credentials, experience, etc.

They are supposed to provide similar benefit packages, but, because guest-workers are "temporary" workers, they receive "temporary worker" benefit packages which are quite a bit less than real employees. And by the time it's all filtered through a bodyshop, the actual compensation ends up being, as Vandrevala confessed, 25% to 35% below that of US STEM workers with real jobs (note that Miano had found hourly rates for guest-workers that were "only" 12%-15% below local market compensation).

An employer can even pay all of his, e.g. "software developers" at a particular facility well below local market compensation, and thus rationalize also underpaying the guest-workers.

They can legally put a person into a position that is well below his abilities and experience, but have them do any work in the range from the level of job they're being paid for to what they're able to do, and thus pay them well below the local market compensation. Then there's the "we consider you to be salaried professionals" scam by which they avoid paying at all for hours worked over 40 per week, let alone the "time and a half" that is the norm... and don't try to get by working only 40 hours per week, either.

That's not to imply I have a lot of respect for academic credentials. I've seen great software product developers doing R&D on commercial products, who were still in high school, some who had only a year or two of university course-work, and others who had degrees in music or psychology or Latin and Greek literature. One firm profiled in the Wall Street Journal said they hired only programmers with music backgrounds and said they had lower turn-over and absenteeism, and better esprit de corp.

One of the illegal under-payment scams publicized in 2006 by an investigative reporter... let's see... Matt Wickenheiser of the Portland ME Press Herald, was applying on the basis of the guest-worker being located in a low cost of living/low pay work-place, but using a mail-drop or rented closet "office" and actually sending the guest-worker to a high cost of living/high pay location to do the job. There was a more recent case of a bodyshop with a phony office in Iowa and work being done in New Jersey; and they even tried to beat up and otherwise lean on the whistle-blower... who was wearing a wire. Gotcha! :B-)

Jan. 10, 2011

Welcome to the On-Line Reader MesaRunner Great comments!

Jan. 10, 2011

There are abuses in these programs that the U.S. public is not aware of. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

MesaRunner-confirms pretty much everything I said about the reasons these big mammoth tech compnaies want H-1B visas issued by the millions-to get around paying market wages.

And MesaRunner pretty much confirms and proves up Ponzi's comments too.

TY for our insight MR. People like you and Ponzi are what we need in this debate, you two can provide first hand accounts of this, where the rubber meets the road in this debate. You saw it, you experienced it, you know it from first hand experience.

Jan. 11, 2011

I read the "Jobs Rated" report that came out today in Career Cast. It said that Software Engineer would be one of the top 10 jobs in America for 2011.

A friend emailed me a link to this dialog and I thought I’d add my take. I have 25 years as an American embedded C/C++ Software Engineer in 3 huge multi-national companies in the Boston area.

Reporting that Software Engineers are going to be highly paid ignores the disastrous impact that H1B outsourcing has had on this industry for us Americans. It has driven starting salaries down, bonuses down, and raises down by virtue of supply-and-demand competition. This of course is precisely what the fat-cat senior managers and CEOs wanted Congress to do for them.

They ignore the negative impact on rigor. In the good old days, far more rigor and engineering discipline was the norm. Now I see far too often seat-of-the-pants sloppy design and implementation (as well as sloppy middle management who cannot lead engineers too but that's another story).

So called "diversity" has wrecked genuine teamwork -- I now speak of local teams in one building. In the good old days most everyone was white, American, and had a common education, culture, and value system. For example, it was a bunch of young white guys that put Americans on the moon in just 10 years. Now with "diversity" I see language barriers, nobody goes out to lunch together on Fridays, nobody gets together after hours for softball or bowling, and nobody invites co-workers (or the boss) over to supper once in a while. Instead, other than required tech meetings, the Chinese hang out with the Chinese, the Indians hang out with the Indians, and the Whites hang out with the Whites, etc. Spare me the anecdotal exceptions -- I have seen the practice for too long in 3 companies over the last 18 years or so.

The "globalization" has also wrecked teamwork. When we engineers are forced to cooperate with teams in China and India and Singapore and Mexico, the time difference and language barriers and lack of eye contact inhibits efficient development. Without a team spirit and common vision of the new product, information flow is limited and irritations with the other teams fester.

BOTTOM LINE: Senior Management, CEOs, and Congress have allowed the implosion of genuine American software engineering for the sake of a few dollars. You can point to a million new products to try and say I am wrong but I can point to the way those products are always requiring software patches, bug fixes, and recalls. Shoddy in most every case and Microsoft WinXP is a perfect example what with almost daily fixes. I can also point to thousands of out-of-work American software engineers, the way engineers walk-on-eggshells lest they get laid off, and the stress of always trying to be politically correct in the workplace.

You have been sold out and ripped off, American kids, and you don't even know it!

Jan. 10, 2011

Great Comment!

RE: You have been sold out and ripped off, American kids, and you don't even know it!

I'd also add, the kids of those kids, will have will also be challenged to find decent jobs as the USA increases its downhill slide into upper Third World Status!

Nationality will be much less important than wealth in this decade as people will no longer live their entire lives in one Country, choosing instead to move globally to perceived places of Safety...

Jan. 10, 2011

Without question, America's great decline will have serious consequences for our children and grandchildren. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

I can't agree with your statements about a bunch of white people being more efficient than a bunch of people from different races and backgrounds. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 10, 2011

I'm reading MesaRunner's comments as comparing an R & D group effort in the past made up of only US engineers to a current mixed group of engineers located in many different places each with their own command structure that are all actually competing for future contracts against each other and are not actually working toward a common goal; not that one race or group is "better" or "smarter" than another.

MesaRunner, Please correct me if I am not reading your comment correctly!

Jan. 11, 2011

He specifically said "white" and "American" as he lamented the cultural and ethnic diversity today versus years past. This smacks of Good Ole Boys lamenting the great days of years ago before the Civil Rights Act. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 11, 2011

MassExodus made a very good comment.

I think the "whites" cooment (I hope anyway) was meant to convey that there is no common bond with H-1B foriegners and "Americans". I wish he would have said "Americans" in place of "whites".

Jan. 11, 2011

Maybe he didn't mean the remark to be inflammatory. But it came across that way. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 11, 2011

So called "diversity" has wrecked genuine teamwork -- I now speak of local teams in one building. In the good old days most everyone was white, American, and had a common education, culture, and value system. For example, it was a bunch of young white guys that put Americans on the moon in just 10 years."

Yes, young Americans like Wernher von Braun and Kurt H. Debus led us into space.

Similarly during WWII the atomic bomb was developed by a brash young band of Americans led by Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi, Niels Bohr and John von Neumann, among many others.

I agree with Don on disagreeing with your statements about teamwork.

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you have a couple of whoppers in there as well.

I agree that a team suffers if it is not co-located, but it has been well documented that a homogeneous team (e.g. all young white males, particularly if their background and schooling is very similar) do not produce as good solutions as a heterogeneous mix. I have worked on teams with Russian, English, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Hungarian, Kazakh, polish, South African, Australian, Egyptian, Iraqi, Iranian, Italian, french, German and Mexican engineers (off the top of my head), and very rarely had any issues with teamwork associated with ethnic differences. One of the biggest advantageous we have over India and China is our heterogeneous workforce. Diversity helps spawn new thinking. China and India will have to work hard to overcome the group-think endemic to a homogeneous totalitarian state.

I have seen crap work produced 20 years ago under heavy and rigorous process controls that stifled productivity, and I have seen exceptional work produced in a lightweight and highly iterative modern environment with modern tools and massive testing frameworks. The speed of building highly complex systems is night and day faster than what it was 25 years ago.

The only "diversity" that has hurt teams I have been associated with is the government and corporate mandates that require hiring unqualified engineers to fill a quota for a protected group.

The size and complexity of modern software almost guarantees problems, so patches are completely understandable and acceptable. When in OS was just an OS, was 8 bits and didn't do much, it was possible to foresee and test every possible condition. That is no longer realistically possible.

The fact you point to Microsoft WinXP is interesting. Microsoft is legendary for hiring bright young engineers with similar backgrounds that closely fit their culture profile. You have described the problems in WinXP. That development effort resulted from a homogeneous group of engineers in a rigorous culture. Compare that to open source development such as Linux. Internally Google has adopted an open-source mentality, and have been much more successful than Microsoft of late.

Jan. 11, 2011

The fact you point to Microsoft WinXP is interesting. Microsoft is legendary for hiring bright young engineers with similar backgrounds that closely fit their culture profile.

Sorry Paul, this is just not true.

MS is not "legendary" in their hiring, "notorious" for outsourcing jobs is much more accurate.

Jan. 11, 2011

In my judgment, Microsoft is notorious for coming up with very little in the way of new technology. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 11, 2011

That is exactly why I find their interview process so interesting. In an industry that thrives on innovation, they don't produce any. They have been very adept at buying innovation and marketing it, however.

Jan. 11, 2011

Agreed. This lack of innovation may be one reason their stock underperforms. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

In my judgment, Microsoft is notorious for coming up with very little in the way of new technology

MS has not invented ANYTHING. They have copied and bought all of their major technologies.

They stole/bought windows from a person who had stolen the concept from Apple, and Apple themselves had stolen the GUI/windows concept from Xerox.

Jan. 12, 2011

I thought Apple was going BK in the early 90's. I advised my Mother NOT to buy any of their stock at $23 per share b/c it was going to be worthless very soon.

At that time they were losing market share on the personal computer-and that is still the case today- and were trying desperately to get other technology into their fold w/o success-and they purchased "Newton" one of the veyr first hand held devices-who remembers the Newton! Newton was a major flop.

Today Apple is the 2nd largest company in the world by capitalization. I still cannot believe the run they have had.

Jan. 12, 2011

Back in 1997 I had discussions with coworkers that we ought to buy some Apple because they were under $20 (split adjusted probably less than $5 today), but Microsoft couldn't afford to let them go under (they needed the at least the pretense of competition) and Jobs was coming back.

I never bought any. I don't regret that decision at all. No sireee. Not at all.

(Excuse me while I go rock back and forth and cry in the corner. now.)

Jan. 12, 2011

SP,

So, my friends who went to the magical land of "Redmond" and worked on Windows XP in the late 1990's were actually being sent to China or India? I had no idea.

Bing is your friend. Try searching Bing for "Microsoft interview process" (its sacrilegious to put "Microsoft" into a google search). Add the term "legendary" just for grins. See how many hits you get, then read a couple.

Feel free to continue commenting on things you nothing about. I'm used to it. My 9 year old does it all the time.

Jan. 11, 2011

Feel free to continue commenting on things you nothing about. I'm used to it. My 9 year old does it all the time.

========================

LOL.....yes, a Google search with "Microsoft interview process"and the term "legendary" is the beacon of truth!

All I can say is you must have one heck of a smart 9 y/o!

Look, your comments about H-1B visa's have been thoroughly rebutted and discredited by 3 people here who have first hand knowledge of the issue. You're not the "know all" of tech issues.

Jan. 12, 2011

Based on your responses, I highly doubt you have any idea what my views on H-1B actually are.

As for my daughter, we have been told more than once that she is a born lawyer.

We were not pleased. ;)

Jan. 12, 2011

Based on your responses, I highly doubt you have any idea what my views on H-1B actually are.

================== I will take that comment with the same amount of credibility that you brought to the H-1B claims that they do not drive down wages!

Seriously, that is a ridiculous comment. Ask the three people who have posted here, who have first hand knowledge of the H-1B visa damage, if they think my comments are off base.

Jan. 12, 2011

SP, now you are just making stuff up.

I never made any such claim about H-1B.

Try and find one.

Jan. 12, 2011

As I said, this is a a very good colloquy. We need more like it. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

Good points. Remember the controversy over whether von Braun had been a Nazi? Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 11, 2011

when hate speak is spooned into the mixture of common sense understanding i agree with Don...the dish become unfit for human consumption tho nearly everything MassExodus said otherwise is right on target

many of these countries...China in particular.... were never willing to buy American

they bargained for industry to be built in China before they would buy...nationalistic blackmail began then the outsourcing of industry and jobs to China

territorial imperative isn't new...language doesn't have to be a barrier....a willingness and mission statement to be cooperative shouldn't be a burden to peoples of good will

we see it everywhere...that unwillingness to find common ground...and MONEY and/or POWER is always the common denominator

Americans have always consisted of many different races....and have not always been cohesive...but that's no reason to not work toward a change

Jan. 11, 2011

when hate speak is spooned into the mixture of common sense understanding i agree with Don...the dish become unfit for human consumption tho nearly everything MassExodus said otherwise is right on target

=============== I agree 100%. I was hoping ME was trying to convey a point and did it in the wrong way. But the "white" comment was out of line.

Jan. 11, 2011

MassExodus had contributed much to this discussion. Everybody is permitted a slip or two. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 11, 2011

As Wally said in an old Dilbert cartoon: "Of all the joys in life, I like nitpicking the best".

The easiest thing to do is sit back and criticize others while not adding anything of substance yourself.

ME added a lot to this discussion.

I agree with a lot more of what ME wrote then it may seem, since I usually won't respond to say "I agree", but rather respond on the points about which I disagree.

Jan. 12, 2011

We have always been a melting pot. We are becoming more so. The ethnic groups coming here are filling top tech jobs. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 11, 2011

Well, we certainly have had a look at the tech outsourcing from both sides.

Paul laid out his view-and while I don't agree with it he certainly made some good points.

And I am grateful we had 3 people here post their own first hand experiences.

Jan. 11, 2011

I took a quick look at the ads for tech job in Colorado Springs.


Sr. IT Associate (Colorado Springs) Educational qualifications wanted bachelors degree with 3 to 5 month work experience. * Compensation: $17 to $22/hr http://cosprings.craigslist.org/tch/2151757543.html



Jr Data Analyst (Colorado Springs) QUALIFICATIONS: • Bachelor’s degree in Information Systems or similar area of study. • 1-3 years creating and manipulating Microsoft Excel spreadsheets and macros. Expertise in Excel functions and formulas. • 1-3 years creating and manipulating complex Microsoft Access tables and queries. • A strong attention to detail and ability to follow written and verbal instructions. • Experience in creating and managing documentation with Microsoft Word. • Professional knowledge of software programming principles including data structures. • Excellent interpersonal communication. • Initiative to research and articulate new technologies that may be beneficial to senior management.

BENEFICIAL QUALIFICATIONS: • 1-3 years creating and manipulating Microsoft SQL Server databases, tables, DTS packages, stored procedures, backup and recovery, and SQL. • 1-3 years creating sophisticated GUI’s within Microsoft Access using VBA that includes the use of automation to Microsoft Excel. • 1-3 years professional software development experience, as a programmer, with all aspects of the software development life-cycle that includes analysis, design, code, unit/system test and implementation. • Knowledge and use of PostalSoft (Business Objects) products, VB .Net, HTML, Java, JSP, web servers and Windows 2003 Server, and Microsoft Exchange. Location: Colorado Springs Compensation: $17hr http://cosprings.craigslist.org/sof/2122308630.html


Jan. 12, 2011

Looks like a lot of qualifications for a so-so salary. But it is work. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

Those are both very junior jobs, and an information systems degree is typically a BA rather than the BS you would get in software engineering and is not considered as "serious".

It is typical to ask for the world in a job ad, and the staff publishing the ads are typically HR rather than the hiring managers and often don't know anything about the skills they are asking for.

I remember the year JAVA was first released I saw a job listing that required 5 years of JAVA experience!

The average for software engineering in Colorado Springs is $70K to $90K according to this site: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Software-Engineer-l-Colorado-Springs,-CO.html

I imagine the cost of living in Colorado Springs is fairly low, so that would be a pretty good salary.

[edited to add]: I just asked careerbuilder for software engineer salaries in Colorado Springs in a different way, and the answer came back as $104K

Jan. 12, 2011

Those are both very junior jobs, and an information systems degree is typically a BA rather than the BS you would get in software engineering and is not considered as "serious".

And both degrees are much harder and more serious than an education degree-which starts at more than both those jobs at the ENTRY LEVEL, in absolute terms. In relative terms a teaching job is probably 3-6 times the compensation because teachers only work 36 hours per week (tech job is probably 50-60 or more), and they only work 37 weeks per year (tech are probably 50 weeks per year) and the benefits for all gov jobs are at least double the beenfits for a private sector job-if the private sector job even has benefits-they very likely little to none. . . .

It is typical to ask for the world in a job ad, and the staff publishing the ads are typically HR rather than the hiring managers and often don't know anything about the skills they are asking for.

And what makes you think this is true?? Why do you say it is "typical"????.... have you interviewed every employer in CO and found this amazing fact yourself???? You made a claim that has no basis whatsoever. I highly doubt HR are the ones writing job requirements for tech positions. I highly doubt the person reviewing applications "don't know anything about the skills they are asking for". Those comments are ridiculous. Not a shred of truth to them.

The comment is mere speculation without an once of validity to it. Similar to your claims about tech employment in the US that were thoroughly destroyed by people with first hand knowledge. . . The average for software engineering in Colorado Springs is $70K to $90K according to this site: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Softwa... ========================= Absolutely bogus info.

They also say the average wage for an attorney in San Diego, CA is $87K. Not even close. In fact most people with law degrees,over half, cannot even find jobs at ANY amount. . http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=lawyer&l1=san+diego%2Cca .

The MARKET wage for employment is what is offered today-the craigslist ad posted is the market.

If you want to search Craigslist and find a tech position that pays $90K PLEASE DO IT-I want to see it. Since you said the $90K was average-you should be able to find jobs that pay even more. I'll be waiting for your links to those jobs.

Use real market wages-not some bogus website that has no basis in reality.

Jan. 12, 2011

SP said: "And what makes you think this is true?? Why do you say it is "typical"????.... have you interviewed every employer in CO and found this amazing fact yourself???? You made a claim that has no basis whatsoever."

Why do I know?

This is what I do, SP, I kinda know a little about it. Your response to me is equivalent to you lecturing Don that he doesn't know how to investigate a story.

My entire career has been in San Diego, but it may shock you to find out that software engineering is the same in Colorado Springs as it is here, using the same buzz words on job reqs. In fact, a lot of the major employers have offices in both places.

I have been involved in hiring engineers for my teams for 20 years, taking far too much time away from my actual job. Between that, talking to my peers and keeping abreast of my profession by periodically surveying the job market, I have a pretty good idea of what a software engineering job req looks like, both in San Diego and around the country.

SP said: "If you want to search Craigslist and find a tech position that pays $90K PLEASE DO IT-I want to see it."

Here is another helpful hint for you: Real software engineers don't look for jobs on Craigslist.

I did look up an appropriate jobs site for experienced engineers in Colorado Springs, and the first job that popped up and listed salary was for an embedded C++ engineer (like ME) with 5-7 years of experience at $45-$55 an hour.

SP said: "both degrees are much harder and more serious than an education degree"

Are you seriously claiming that a BA in IT or IS from Bridgeport is harder to obtain and is more meaningful than the masters in education you need from an accredited university to get a teaching credential?

Really?

Jan. 12, 2011

My entire career has been in San Diego, but it may shock you to find out that software engineering is the same in Colorado Springs as it is here, using the same buzz words on job reqs. In fact, a lot of the major employers have offices in both places.

================= What you said had nothing to do with software engineering, but with hiring practices, and NO, hiring practices are not the same from company to company, in San Diego, CO Springs, or anywhere else in America. Your claim that it is is baseless. I made no claim that engineering was different between SD and CO Springs-just that you have no idea what the hiring practices are, you were just making wild speculations. . . . . Are you seriously claiming that a BA in IT or IS from Bridgeport is harder to obtain and is more meaningful than the masters in education you need from an accredited university to get a teaching credential? ====================== Yes, an MS in engineering from Bridgeport (??) is harder to obtain than an MA in education from Bridgeport. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of univerities that offer a "masters" in education, and most are of diploma mill quality. The only reason it is offered is because teacher pay is dependant upon post bachelors education. . . . Here is another helpful hint for you: Real software engineers don't look for jobs on Craigslist. ====================== Well, if that is the case then please post a job listing with the rate of pay you claim, from wherever the "real" software engineers" look. I want to see it.

Jan. 12, 2011

Are you seriously claiming that a BA in IT or IS from Bridgeport is harder to obtain and is more meaningful than the masters in education you need from an accredited university to get a teaching credential?

I am not famliar with Bridgeport. A quick Google search shows it as a tier 2 university that is very small.

But MA's in education are diploma mill type degrees in many instances. We had a discussion here a few months back about National University (a Bridgepoint article) and I mentioned I took a number of their teacher credentialing classes (post graduate masters classes) where I did not buy any of the text books-not a single one. I did not do any homework or any other work outside of class room attendance, and I received straight A's. The ENTIRE class did. That is the bench mark for a dimploma mill. That type of expeience is not uncommon in graduate/MA teacher education classes. That would never happen at a school ike SDSU or USD, but it is at National, Chapman, USIU when it was still operating their MA program, and some of the others in town that offer MA's in education.

Jan. 12, 2011

Bridgepoint.

My mistake.

The comparison I made is between a BA in IT from Phoenix, National or Bridgepoint compared with a MA from at a legitimate program like SDSU.

Jan. 12, 2011

I thought you meant Bridgepoint. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

I assume that confession was good for your soul, if not your reputation. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

SP maybe you are just one of those lucky A students that don't need to study or read books!

Many classes are taught by Prof.'s that test on their lecture material and not the book...

Jan. 13, 2011

Nope, the entire class got A's, not just me.

NO ONE got straight A's at San Diego State, they had a very strict grading curve-where 75% of the grades were C or below, 20% B's and 5% A's.

Jan. 13, 2011

The average undergraduate GPA at SDSU is just over 2.9, or almost a B average.

You can't get anywhere close to that neighborhood with your numbers.

Jan. 13, 2011

Please post a link to that comment. I dont buy it. I knwo what the grades were when I was there. They also could have raised the curve. If 5% were F's, 5% D's 60-65% C's, 20% B's and 5% A's then that is a 2.4 overall GPA, that is what the curve was when I was at SDSU, and my numbers were not off.

Jan. 13, 2011

If you assume every single grade was a "+" grade (only A, B+, C+ and D), THEN you reach 2.4. If you assume there were also A-, B, B-, C and C- grades, then it drops to about 2.15.

The average GPA for universities in the 30's and 40's was about 2.4. It increased through the 50's and increased sharply in the 60's. By the late 60's/early 70's the national average for public schools was close to where it is now, at over 3.0 for public and 3.4 to 3.6 for private.

Harvard is one of the very worst.

In 1966 22% of Harvard grades were A or A-. In 2008 50% of grades at Harvard were A or A-. In 2008 91% of Harvard graduates graduated with honors (mental note, if I ever meet a Harvard grad who DIDN'T graduate with honors, run!).

Princeton is now considered one of the strictest grading private institutions because in 2003 they capped the number of A grades in each class at 35%.

Jan. 14, 2011

If you assume every single grade was a "+" grade (only A, B+, C+ and D), THEN you reach 2.4. If you assume there were also A-, B, B-, C and C- grades, then it drops to about 2.15.

=============

State does usethe +/- grades-it is the choice of the teacher to use them or not use them. Most do and it is a far mroe accurate way to grade. The result would still be the same GPA average, 10% received F's and D's, 60% received C's and the remaining 25%-30% were the A's and B's.

Yes-I am well aware of Harvard's grade inflation, in fact 91% of the undergrads graduate with some form of honors (cum, magna, summa cum laude) Stanford is also notorious for grade inflation. As a general rule state schools have very little, if any, grade inflation.

Harvard and Stanford and many private schools also allow you to "drop" a class right up until the final day and not take a letter grade-just a drop, at SDSU you have to drop within the first 10 days (??), or take a letter grade. In fact I had a party animal friend who went to USD studying for a BBA degree and he took one required class 4 times before he passed, and the first three attempts he was allowed to "drop" the class on the final day instead of taking an "F". That is the difference between a private school and public school. Not all private schools have grade inflation, MIT does not do it.

One of the Ivy shcools has a grading system where they post the either the mean grade, or the mode grade, next to the grade the student receives, so a person reviewing the transcript can see how the person did relative to the rest of the class-forgot which school that was though. No grade infaltion atthat school.

Jan. 14, 2011

SP said: "State does usethe +/-... The result would still be the same GPA average, 10% received F's and D's, 60% received C's and the remaining 25%-30% were the A's and B's."

Well, you've gone from 5% A's and 20% B's to 30% A's and B's so you are moving in the right direction.

Very simply, if you were at SDSU no earlier than 1970 the likely breakdown was 50% to 60% A's and B's.

If you were at SDSU in the 40's, A's and B's may have been down to 40%.

To hit last years average GPA at SDSU, they probably gave about 70% A's and B's (30% A's and 40% B's would get them up to 2.9+).

I think you remember SDSU grading a lot harder than they ever really did.

Jan. 14, 2011

Paul I dont know where you are getting these numbers-SDSU does NOT give out 50%-70% A's and B's. In a class of 30 You might have 2-3 A's and 5-6 B's. At least 50%+ of the grades were C's. I know, I was there, I can verify that first hand. It was very hard to earn an A-they grade on a curve, and the curve was not 2.9 when I went there. SDSU and NEVER given out 70% A's and B's-where are you gettign this nonsense??? Please post up the link.

Jan. 14, 2011

OK, I just found the PDF on GPA-it has DEFINITELY gone up since I was there.

Jan. 14, 2011

http://gradeinflation.com/

The biggest rise was in the late 60's, but it was still rising slowly before that. Private and public tracked closely until a rapid split in the 50's. I wonder if that was due to the GI bill, the same phenomenon pushing Bridgepoint today.

Majors differ as well, so your experience at SDSU might not have been representative of the school average. The school average, even if you were in the early 60's, would have been substantially higher percentage of A's then you were thinking

For instance impacted engineering majors at UCSD still grade MUCH harder than most liberal arts departments at UCSD.

Jan. 14, 2011

That is an excellent link on grade inflation. They have the Duke study-which is faulry well known and I have seen it in the past. It is intewresting b/c the link says-correctly- that the more selective the school is the more grade inflation you have, and the less selective the school the less grade inflation. One well known ABA law school has fairly low entrance requirements, comparatively speaking, and they flunk out 65% of their students-1/3 the first year and 1/3 the second year. To flunk out you need to have a GPA below 2.0. I find that interesting.....

Jan. 14, 2011

Some propose using class rank rather than GPA.

That makes a whole lot of sense, which means it will probably never happen.

Jan. 15, 2011

Do you mean Bridgepoint rather than Bridgeport? Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

I think it is pretty hard to compare a teaching job with a software engineering job. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

I'm not sure they are "very junior" jobs in this economy. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

walterbyrd - that is EYE OPENING!!!!

Hey, thanks for posting that up.

If I had nto seen the ad, I would have said there is NO WAY they would get ANYONE with that kind of educatinal background for $17 an hour (less than $40K per year).

Truly amazing.

Again, thank you for posting those ads.

I could post even better ones-and I have-for licensed attorneys where the pay is even less. In one case they wanted the licensed attorney to work for FREE, as an unpaid intern for the "experience". That was the Marin County DA's office as I recall.

Jan. 12, 2011

Many people who have just graduated from college take jobs as unpaid interns. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

I know it happens in specialized jobs with the City of San Diego.

There are unpaid interns in San Diego for at least some skilled jobs where there are not many positions and they don't open up frequently. It gives you the very specific experience you need to apply when a job opens up at a similar agency somewhere, and gives you a big leg up if a job opens with the city itself.

It seems perfectly reasonable that a lawyer who wanted to be a deputy DA in Marin would intern first to gain specific skills and demonstrate ability to perform and work within that department.

Jan. 13, 2011

Once an intern, when the "job" is posted, much of the time it is tailored to match the interns exact experience so that they can be hired...

Hundreds may apply but the intern is selected after a HR show and tell to protect themselves...

Jan. 13, 2011

Sign of the times: hundreds showing up to interview for a non-paying job. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 13, 2011

College-educated, unpaid "interns" pop up in a number of occupations these days. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 13, 2011

It seems perfectly reasonable that a lawyer who wanted to be a deputy DA in Marin would intern first to gain specific skills and demonstrate ability to perform and work within that department.

By paul

But that was NOT the case-not at all(You're right, if it had a chance to lead to a job it would be a good investment).

The job listing specifically said it would NOT lead to a paying job, that the unpaid position was of 6 months duration and if you could not complete the full 6 months they did not want you. I was trying to find the posting for it, if I find it I will link it.

As I recall (since this was on an attorney board) the employment attorneys were all over it and said it was illegal, cannot recall the reason.

Jan. 13, 2011

Many people who have just graduated from college take jobs as unpaid interns.

That may be true in some cases, but not professionals such as lawyers, doctors or CPA's. And as it turned out it was not legal either.

And for the record, they actually wanted these people to litigate small cases for the agency.

I think "intern" was a bad choice of words on my part. They did not want an intern, they wanted a full-time employee-doing regular work- for free. Intern suggests a training program, which this was not.

Jan. 13, 2011

There could be problems is unpaid, so-called "interns" actually litigate cases for a firm. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 13, 2011

i'm not a high paid tech type Don...can i still come???

pritty peas pooh ;-D

~~i could bring ethnic snax~~

Jan. 12, 2011

Nan, you could sweet-talk your way into any job, whether or not you have the qualifications. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 12, 2011

Uh oh.

Do NOT tell that to MassExodus!

Jan. 13, 2011

ME won't hear a peep. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 13, 2011

did u guys hear about 241+ employees being laid off at Alvarado Hospital???

not only tech jobs r being trifled with...jobs of all kind r falling like cut straw to be blown willy nilly away with the winds of this unsettled economy

i hear that Chula Vista is trying to cut back on public employees and they (the employees) r now going to pay into their own pension funds... work fewer days and take no raises and possibly pay cuts to keep their jobs

Desperation...so sad.....that doesn't create jobs tho

Jan. 14, 2011

I don't know if the number is correct but big layoffs at Alvarado have been announced. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 14, 2011

it may not be perfectly correct Don...actually more then that with some others affiliated with the hospital....

when patient based hospital employees can't be sure of their jobs it's a dark dark world :-(

Jan. 14, 2011

Is Alvarado still owned by that doctor group????

Jan. 14, 2011

Don't know who owns it. When I was operated on there, it was part of a privately-held chain. Later there was some kind of scandal. If ownership shifted, I have forgotten about it. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 15, 2011

I was given heart bypass surgery twice in Alvarado. Also did heart rehab there. Always had great service. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 15, 2011

I was given heart bypass surgery twice in Alvarado. Also did heart rehab there. Always had great service

Was Van Camp your doctor by chance. He was a cardiac surgeon, who also headed the AMA, and taught my cardiopulmany physiology class at SDSU.

Hardest class I ever took in my life-was a 3rd or 4th year medical school speciality class being taught in the SDSU Masters program. Was the only class I have even felt I could fail-when I got a C I was thanking my lucky stars.

Van Camp also taught using the socratic method-like law school-where he called on you and asked you to explain the theories and science we were studying-luckily for me I was never called on, I would have been toast.

Jan. 15, 2011

Both surgeries were performed by Christopher Elia, who had a great reputation. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 15, 2011

my Dad had heart surgery there...had 2 valves replaced and his carotid arteries cleared...it was a very fine hospital and had a fabulous heart rehab unit....they also were greatly involved with exercise physiology testing and rehab for athletes at one time

i think that group of Doctors does still own it...many of the docs there were involved in the early studies on the effects of running in the early days of running

my my time flies doesn't it ;-D

Jan. 15, 2011

they also were greatly involved with exercise physiology testing and rehab for athletes at one time

i think that group of Doctors does still own it...many of the docs there were involved in the early studies on the effects of running in the early days of running

yes nan, Van Camp taught our class in the Masters Degree program in Exercise Physiology at State. Steve Van Camp was a big shot cardiac surgeon and head of the American Medical Association at the time. I HATED that class! I hated it because it was literally a class heart surgeons take in their 4th year of medical school-and although I have a very strong back ground in physiology I did not have the background to do well in that class. I was in sooooooo far over my head. I was so lucky to get a C (luck, pure luck and nothing but luck), I honestly thought I was going to fail. I have never failed a college class ever, have never received a D. I would have taken a D and thanked my lucky stars. The C was a Christmas gift I will always be thankful for!

Jan. 15, 2011

You never got a D or F at State but some of your enemies on this blog give you an F all the time. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 15, 2011

My surgeries and heart rehabs at Alvarado were excellent. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 15, 2011

and puppy....if u can't explain it u don't really know it...hahahahahahaha

that's easy for me to say...those are the only kinds of classes i ever really took for my medical specialties ;-D

Jan. 15, 2011

A medical specialist who doubles as a poet. Good show. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 15, 2011

I was given heart bypass surgery twice in Alvarado. Also did heart rehab there. Always had great service. Best, Don Bauder


those folks really knew how to fix a broken heart Don ;)

Jan. 15, 2011

I can't believe you have ever had a broken heart, Nan. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 15, 2011

I can't believe you have ever had a broken heart, Nan. Best, Don Bauder


how could one become a very good poet having never had a broken heart Don???

that would be a complete impossibility...chaotic happenings in one life crack the egg of poetic depth...and pour it out perfectly yolked or scrambled

i started my life broken hearted Don...was removed from my home and parents at 10 years old never to live with either of them again....

~~grist for the mill as the Hindu's would say Don....grist for the poetic mill~~

Jan. 15, 2011

My apologies. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 18, 2011

More proof that the engineers are underpaid and the financial engineers are ridiculously overpaid. Best, Don Bauder

Jan. 18, 2011

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