• Scam Diego alerts

San Diego is recognized by many as the large U.S. city that is the most likely candidate for bankruptcy. Yet the city's pro football team, the Chargers, would like the insolvent city to subsidize a stadium for the team's billionaire owner to the tune of, supposedly, $500 million, but $600 million is the realistic bottom figure. (Actually, the Chargers would prefer to go to L.A., but want San Diego as a backup.)

Generally, three states are considered the worst off financially: California, Illinois, and New Jersey. Now the Chicago Cubs baseball team has plans to shake down Illinois, which has a $15 billion deficit, and is burdened by financially ailing Chicago and Cook County.

The new Cubs owner, Tom Ricketts, wants the Illinois Sports Facilities Authority to float up to $300 million in bonds to be paid over 35 years to fix up Wrigley Field. Now listen to Ricketts' thoroughly disingenuous spin: he says the bonds will be paid over 35 years through amusement taxes that Wrigley visitors already pay. The Cubs paid $16.1 million to the City of Chicago and Cook County last year from the 12% tax on each ticket. So he says it won't come out of taxpayers' pockets. However, "It's still a loss of public money," says Neil deMause, who runs the website www.fieldofschemes.com. The city and county will not get the $16.1 million that they got last year. The state could wind up holding the bag. But Ricketts never discussed his proposal with the governor. "Ricketts is going back on his vow that he had no plans to seek public funds for a Wrigley renovation," says deMause. Billionaire pro sports team owners go back on their vows all the time.

  • Scam Diego alerts


MURPHYJUNK Nov. 13, 2010 @ 4:05 p.m.

huge price to pay for phony entertainment


Don Bauder Nov. 13, 2010 @ 8:23 p.m.

Remember that pro sports -- particularly pro football -- are driven by gambling. So it's really two kinds of entertainment: athletics and gaming. That is a great part of the appeal. This is a major reason why pro sports team owners have long tended to be gamblers and often linked closely to organized crime. (See the 1989 book, "Interference," by Dan L. Moldea for a comprehensive, liberally footnoted history of pro football and organized crime.) This relationship with gambling and crime, in turn, is another reason why those owners cannot be trusted to deal squarely with a municipality and a state. Best, Don Bauder


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 13, 2010 @ 4:06 p.m.

San Diego is recognized by many as the large U.S. city that is the most likely candidate for bankruptcy.

Chicago is at least tied, if not ahead of San Diego. I think in another year Boston and Los Angeles may pass us too.


Don Bauder Nov. 13, 2010 @ 8:28 p.m.

If any of those cities pass San Diego it will be because SD politicians don't have the temerity to do the obvious. It probably won't be because those cities are worse off financially.

Glad you took note of Chicago. Moldea's book, mentioned in my post above, shows that Al Capone helped finance both the Chicago Bears and Chicago Cardinals (now Arizona Cardinals). Best, Don Bauder


a2zresource Nov. 14, 2010 @ 2:53 a.m.

I am coming around to seeing corruption in a new light.

There is the corrupt individual in an uncorrupted culture of leadership. He or she may be successful for a time because of the immediate advantages that personal corruption may offer, but the leadership culture will eventually find this person out and expel her or him for its own good. The SCAM DIEGO blog posts tell us that we have moved beyond this level.

There are the corrupt individuals who corrupt the civic leadership of society. This happens when civic leadership is capable of being corrupted and chooses to be corrupt, to keep up with the advantages of the ones bringing corruption on in the first place. I believe this is when at least one of our Founding Fathers said it is a good time to have a revolution, but in our system, we can hope that a large enough group of reformers can rise up and seize control without the human waste of revolution as civil war. There may be resistance to reform by a majority of persons who refuse to acknowledge or even care that a corrupt leadership culture exists, so long as the perceived benefits of corruption continue to roll in, whatever those benefits might be. Examples of this is the Roman bribes of bread and circuses to keep the mob in line, and Al Capone cited above. It may very well apply to the entire culture of "blight" redevelopment in San Diego right now, especially as it overrides concerns about obvious regional scarcities of power, water and other infrastructure.

Finally, there is the level of corruption that overtakes an entire society. This one is ripe for the pickings of neighboring nations who see it to their own advantage to impose order on a diseased society, even to the point of mass slavery or genocide. We don't seem to be there yet, but that distance grows less and less with what we are willing to tolerate in our leadership until corruption consumes us all. I am pretty sure we haven't sunk that low yet, or there would not have been an electoral revolt against the civic leadership's insistent promotion of Proposition D.

Freedom of the press is in the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights because it matters that much for honest public safety against corruption in all forms, at all levels.

Financial bankruptcy is bad; moral bankruptcy is usually worse.


Don Bauder Nov. 14, 2010 @ 6:26 a.m.

You make a good point on the "blight" fraud. The establishment steals money from schools so that redevelopment money can be steered into corporate welfare projects downtown that line the pockets of developers. The ostensible reason: elimination of so-called "blight." But the blight doesn't exist. And redevelopment is also supposed to create affordable housing. It doesn't happen. This should be called what it is: "corruption." Best, Don Bauder


Anon92107 Nov. 14, 2010 @ 12:02 p.m.

Don't overlook the fact that federal, state and local judges and investigative agencies throughout America are enabling the culture of larceny that is bankrupting America.

The latest election proves that we have now reached the lowest point in our history since the Civil War, a point where institutional leaders today are polar opposites in morality, integrity, honor and leadership compared to our Founding Fathers.


Don Bauder Nov. 15, 2010 @ 12:05 p.m.

We have returned to the days of the Robber Barons, both in the shocking disparity in wealth and income and in the rich's control of both political parties. I hate to keep repeating this, but it's true. Best, Don Bauder


Anon92107 Nov. 16, 2010 @ 6:32 a.m.

Don't hesitate to repeat, and repeat the most important facts of life Don.

The fact remains that Robber Baron-Puppet Sanders is the number one threat to San Diego today. He is in charge of fleecing and threatening every family in San Diego, exactly the same as the mafia.

Another historical note is that J. Edgar Hoover gave the mafia "Get Our Of Jail Free" passes during WWII as long as they kept the Nazis from sabotaging our ports. Apparently the passes are still being handed out to the modern mafia like Sanders, and the courts obviously go along with it.


Ponzi Nov. 14, 2010 @ 6:37 a.m.

Fabiani is back with his PR drivel in the SDUT under this “creative” heading: “ Chargers' Mark Fabiani finally discusses stadium”


His emergence in the press is coincident with the completion of the sleazy back room deal in Sacramento that raised the cap on downtown redevelopment spending.


David Dodd Nov. 14, 2010 @ 9:42 a.m.

Notice Fabiani's tone? There will be no stadium.


Don Bauder Nov. 15, 2010 @ 12:07 p.m.

Fabiani specializes in backroom deals, although I don't know his direct or indirect role in this one, if he had such a role. Best, Don Bauder


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 14, 2010 @ 8:19 a.m.

There is NO WAY a stadium deal is going to happen. There is NO money, has not been any for 4 years, and there won't be any in the next 5-15 years at least. And FINALLY the public has had enough of this corporate welfare FOR billionaires. The stadium jig is UP.

The defeat of Prop D was a thorough spanking of not only Sanders and the pension tax, but also the backroom stadium deal.

I think that attempt to backend the stadium pushed all the fence sitters off the fence and against the Spanos Crime Family, Inc. They cannot win now. Let them move-they can take their corporate welfare scams with them.


Visduh Nov. 14, 2010 @ 8:35 a.m.

Once again, I hope SurfPuppy is right about this deal never happening. Yes, the failure of Prop D was a spanking, but Sanders didn't feel it because of all his padding. The Light News is now treating that failure as a non-event, as in "Let's move forward with all the cockamamie schemes and plans anyway."

Do not forget the hold that pro sports, especially the Chargers, have on a big slice of the electorate. A recent Reader cover story consisted of vignettes of home life for diehard fans and their families. I still maintain that if/when the Chargers call in the moving vans, enough local voters will be so totally outraged that any local pol who had anything to do with letting them leave with no fight, or any who refused the extortionate demands, will be toast. It was and is the true "third rail" of local politics here.


Don Bauder Nov. 15, 2010 @ 12:11 p.m.

About 20% of fans are rabid and are a potent political force. Pols are aware of this. Unfortunately, your instincts are right on the money. Best, Don Bauder


David Dodd Nov. 14, 2010 @ 9:40 a.m.

Fabiani resurfaced the other day, calling the latest attempt to get a stadium deal in place in San Diego a last-ditch effort. In other words, as I suspected all along, the Chargers know that there will be no stadium built here and the latest effort will amount to nothing more than giving Chargers fans just enough hope that they continue to buy tickets to the games until Los Angeles builds a stadium.


Don Bauder Nov. 15, 2010 @ 12:14 p.m.

To the Chargers, San Diego is a backup location if L.A. doesn't come through. But here's some consolation: I'm not sure a Los Angeles or City of Industry deal will ever come together. Best, Don Bauder


Don Bauder Nov. 15, 2010 @ 12:09 p.m.

I agree that there is no money but I wish I could agree that the public is fed up with the corporate welfare scams. I'm not sure it is wise. Best, Don Bauder


nan shartel Nov. 14, 2010 @ 10:03 a.m.

it's unbelievable eh...when they start playing better in the stadium they have i'll give it some consideration

and they have lots of money...let them build it themselves

if they build it we will come!!!


Don Bauder Nov. 15, 2010 @ 12:18 p.m.

That is always the problem: why should a team build a stadium itself when it knows that if it makes enough threats to leave, the taxpayers will cough up? There are some exceptions, though: Massachusetts held out and made the Patriots build the stadium privately. The San Francisco Giants went through five unsuccessful votes before the owners coughed up their own money. Best, Don Bauder


Harmsway Nov. 15, 2010 @ 10:04 a.m.

Hope you guys are right 0h WOW _ getting rid of the blood sucking (Money-Sucking) SPANOS CARTEL - and then the polliticos who support using taxayer $$$$ to support the New Stadium crap San Diego will be well on its way to being a legitimate City concerned about its taxpaying citzens not the czars who run it now.


Don Bauder Nov. 15, 2010 @ 12:19 p.m.

There is an old song that addresses your statement: "That'll Be the Day." Best, Don Bauder


Visduh Nov. 15, 2010 @ 3:01 p.m.

It is said that Dean Spanos really has little interest in the Chargers any more. His dad is reportedly senile, and HE for sure has no interest in it. Why doesn't the crime family sell the darned franchise and take the money and run? There can be only one reason: it is very profitable, regardless of the win-loss record, regardless of trading away players who are local heroes, and regardless of the "poor" conditions at the stadium. Presently it must be a no-brainer for them to earn more from the team than they could earn on the selling price. that's why they keep playing games--and I don't mean football games--and keep the city guessing as to their intent. Those die-hard fans should figure out that Dean and his gang care not a whit about the fans or San Diego as a whole. It is all about money, and that's just about what it was all about. Gene Klein was no better when it came to caring if the team won or lost. He was in it for the bucks mostly and the adulation was nice frosting on the cake.


David Dodd Nov. 15, 2010 @ 3:42 p.m.

"It is said that Dean Spanos really has little interest in the Chargers any more."

I'm really curious how you came up with this. Last I checked, the Spanos fortune was worth around 1.2 billion, presuming this includes the Chargers. The Chargers are supposedly worth over 800 million. That's a substantial portion of the Spanos wealth-bucket. The development game is still stalled, and they're grooming Michael to take over as General Manager. I considered that a fairly active interest in the team.


Visduh Nov. 15, 2010 @ 8:33 p.m.

Actually, I was quoting one sports expert, Don Bauder, on that. However, it is very possible for Spanos to be interested in the financial aspects of the operation, while being utterly indifferent to the sporting aspects of it all. So, let me answer your question with my question. Where do you get that $800 million value? With the ultimate home of the team up in the air and with all this controversy about a new stadium in San Diego, the franchise may be worth (at market value) far less than that. If it returns a nice percentage on, say, $300 million, why not keep it for the time being and keep playing games with the pols, fans, and public? An absentee owner whose attention is elsewhere can hire mouthpieces, such as Fabiani, to keep the pot boiling for years.


David Dodd Nov. 15, 2010 @ 8:57 p.m.

According to the league, which is where financial publications also skim such data, the Chargers are worth over 800 million. I reckon that's the perceived market value of the team. Any argument to the contrary certainly deserves merit if it's reasonable, in my opinion. But if we accept that value, then obviously, the Chargers are an important asset to the Spanos clan.

When Alex bought out his partner, he tried to run the team and failed miserably, and ultimately turned it over to Dean who had a little more success. For quite a few years now, they've been grooming Michael for an eventual takeover. Could be that Dean would rather sit back and count profits at this point, I have no idea. I only know that Michael's next step is to take A.J. Smith's job at some point.

As for the Chargers loyalty to San Diego, I entirely agree with you, there isn't any.


Visduh Nov. 15, 2010 @ 9:13 p.m.

I'm happy to know we agree on something.


David Dodd Nov. 15, 2010 @ 9:30 p.m.

I wasn't aware that we disagreed on other things, even this particular thing, I was simply curious about the statement.


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:19 a.m.

The Chargers' ownership has loyalty to money. Best, Don Bauder


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:17 a.m.

Forbes has annual estimations of the value of NFL teams. The number probably came from that. I have seen the latest list but don't have time to look it up now. Forbes lists the Padres as worth $408 million. You can look up the latest Forbes estimate online. Best, Don Bauder


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:13 a.m.

The Spanos fortune has probably diminished somewhat with the real estate collapse. But it's still well over a billion dollars. Dean Spanos has interest in the team as a money machine. I have no idea whether he cares about the field performance. Best, Don Bauder


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:07 a.m.

Historically, most owners (high rollers) care whether their team beats the point spread or not. Actually winning or losing the game is secondary. However, winning is important in the sense that it's easier to fleece the home city into building a new stadium if the team is a consistent winner. Tim Sullivan has a good column in the U-T today (Nov. 16) showing how the NFL is hinting to Atlanta that it won't get any Super Bowls because the stadium is so ancient. The stadium is 18 years old! Repeat: 18 years old! It is time for citizens of metro areas to tell these gangster/owners that critical things, such as infrastructure, public safety, libraries, culture are more important than spending public funds on massive sports subsidies. The NFL would gleefully stand by as cities rot as long as they get their playpens from hapless taxpayers. Best, Don Bauder


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 16, 2010 @ 5:05 a.m.

I doubt there is an NFL team in the entire league worth less than $750 million.

Al Davis and the Raiders have been the worst team in the league for the last 5 years, taking out their recent winning in the worst division in the NFL, and Davis sold a 20% interest for $150 million last year.


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 16, 2010 @ 5:29 a.m.

And that was BEFORE this years mediocre run. They truly were the worst team in the league when Davis sold 20%.


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:20 a.m.

Somebody is going to have to look this up. It's online. Best, Don Bauder


David Dodd Nov. 16, 2010 @ 6:42 a.m.

These are the supposed values of NFL franchises in 2010:

Dalla Cowboys 1,805,000,000 Wash Redskins 1,550,000,000 N En Patriots 1,367,000,000 N York Giants 1,182,000,000 Housto Texans 1,171,000,000 New York Jets 1,144,000,000 Philad Eagles 1,119,000,000 Baltim Ravens 1,073,000,000 Chicago Bears 1,067,000,000 Denve Broncos 1,049,000,000 Indiana Colts 1,040,000,000 Caro Panthers 1,037,000,000 TB Buccaneers 1,032,000,000 Grn B Packers 1,018,000,000 Clevla Browns 1,015,000,000 Miam Dolphins 1,011,000,000 Pitt Steelers 996,000,000 Tennes Titans 994,000,000 Seat Seahawks 989,000,000 K City Chiefs 965,000,000 N Orle Saints 955,000,000 S Franc 49ers 925,000,000 Ari Cardinals 919,000,000 S Do Chargers 907,000,000 Cinci Bengals 905,000,000 Atlan Falcons 831,000,000 Detroit Lions 817,000,000 Buffalo Bills 799,000,000 St Louis Rams 779,000,000 Minne Vikings 774,000,000 Oakla Raiders 758,000,000 Jacks Jaguars 725,000,000

Source: Forbes 8/25/10


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 16, 2010 @ 11:03 a.m.

Oakla Raiders 758,000,000 Jacks Jaguars 725,000,000

Source: Forbes 8/25/10

================= I was close to being on the money, Oakland is the 2nd worst team.


David Dodd Nov. 16, 2010 @ 12:20 p.m.

Here's something to consider: Take any of those franchises not ranked in the top 6 and put them in Los Angeles, and you can automatically add 300 million to its value, based on market and franchising, not to mention broadcast rights. The day the Chargers move to Los Angeles, they will be worth over 1.2 billion.


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 2:49 p.m.

This is why L.A. is the Chargers's first choice. But they need to have San Diego in their pocket unless there is a snafu in L.A. Best, Don Bauder


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 2:44 p.m.

Close counts, as in horseshoes. Best, Don Bauder


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 16, 2010 @ 1:34 p.m.

Dalla Cowboys 1,805,000,000

I remember when J. Jonee bought the Cowboys for a record $100 million in 1990, and I thought he was plain nuts.

Of course the ONLY reason the Cowgirls are worth what they are is because of the stadium corporate welfare.

I think Gene Klein either bought, or sold, the Chargers for $25 million. Either way these pro sports scams have lined the pockets of these owners.


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 3:04 p.m.

And we'll never know how MUCH team ownership was worth to these nabobs. Best, Don Bauder


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:25 a.m.

Ah, somebody finally looked it up: $907 million. If the Chargers are worth $907 million, I would guess the Spanos family total empire (real estate plus Chargers and miscellaneous) is worth more than $2 million, not simply worth more than $1 billion. That's even with the real estate collapse. Best, Don Bauder


Founder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 11:30 a.m.

I think you meant 2 BILLION, not 2 MILLION :-)


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 2:40 p.m.

I beat you to the correction. See above. Best, Don Bauder


MURPHYJUNK Nov. 16, 2010 @ 8 a.m.

put the issue on a vote and see how fast it goes in the toilet.

You'all notice stuff like this never is allowed on a ballot?


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 16, 2010 @ 11:04 a.m.

Prop D put it in the toilet where it belongs.


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 2:42 p.m.

Oh yes, the city fathers are maneuvering so the Chargers stadium never goes to a vote. Best, Don Bauder


Founder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 11:29 a.m.

I think our Leaders are now running scared and as the 2 new Councilmembers take office I expect to see more of them shy away from $anders DEAL because they all fear the heat...

BTW: I ♥ this new blog setup!


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 2:47 p.m.

I hope you're right, but I haven't seen evidence of it. Best, Don Bauder


David Dodd Nov. 16, 2010 @ 12:02 p.m.

Ownership of the Chargers: Alex & wife own 36%. The Spanos' 4 children own 15% each, with the remaining 4% divided between 2 investors. This morning, sources are reporting that A. Spanos is in the process of planning for his estate because he is in grave health. Part of the 36% (estimated at between 10-15%) of Chargers ownership is up for sale, with Goldman-Sachs in charge of the proceedings. Rumors are flying that AEG (Los Angeles) is a buyer.

Mr. Bauder, I'm sports connected, but you're financially connected, so take this story and run with it.


David Dodd Nov. 16, 2010 @ 12:04 p.m.

AEG is Anschutz Entertainment Group for those curious, they are at the forefront of the proposed downtown L.A. Stadium deal.


Ponzi Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:37 p.m.

"Grave health?" They say the surly bird gets the germ.


nan shartel Nov. 16, 2010 @ 12:55 p.m.

hey the Chargers can meander right on up I5 to LA as far as i'm concerned

do they have any gratitude for the many many years that San Diegans have been their fans??!!


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 3:02 p.m.

We're talking about money. What's gratitude? Best, Don Bauder


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 17, 2010 @ 5:50 p.m.

do they have any gratitude for the many many years that San Diegans have been their fans??!!

============= Preach it nan-they are nothing but carpet bagging scammers who wouldn't understand, recognize nor reward loyalty if it knocked them in the head....

If they want to move-good bye and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 16, 2010 @ 1:31 p.m.

hey the Chargers can meander right on up I5 to LA as far as i'm concerned

========================= I agree, although I would qaulify it and say the Spanos Crime Family can take the hike.


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 3:05 p.m.

Alex never did live in SD, although he may have had a condo downtown, or something like that. Dean Spanos has a condo in Vegas, but it may be one of several homes he owns. Best, Don Bauder


Founder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 1:47 p.m.

Our Mayor will look pretty funny if the Chargers move to LA and we are stuck with a new BILLION DOLLAR Guacamole Bowl Stadium full of DEBT!

The only UP side is that the City would then be free of paying for the EMPTY SEAT DEAL at Qualcomm.

  • The Developers will drool over the "Empty" Q and want to scrape and build condos there...

Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 3:07 p.m.

But does San Diego need any more condos? The industry is already a disaster, particularly downtown. Best, Don Bauder


SurfPuppy619 Nov. 16, 2010 @ 3:16 p.m.

There won't be any condo or SFR building n San Diego for at least 5 years, if not 10.


Founder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 5:01 p.m.

The County and the City are pushing for 2020 and the 1.5 MILLION new folks that are going to be living in San Diego...

I expect more Redevelopment Money to be spent on Low and Low-Mod. Housing for all the folks that will come here to live in Rentals in order to service the Ultra Wealthy...


Ponzi Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:33 p.m.

Try 10 to 12 years. The market won't even be healed until 2016.


Ponzi Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:21 p.m.

Nat Bosa, impresario of Bosa Development, has already milked as much condo-mania momentum out of San Diego for the next decade or so. Even he was not smart enough to grab a chair before the music stopped. But he certainly got out with a profit and left all the other idiot developers wondering why they got caught with their pants down.


Don Bauder Nov. 16, 2010 @ 9:51 p.m.

The guy that got out with the fat profits was John Moores, who got the land in the ballpark district at early 1990s prices and sold it for huge profits to the condo developers. Then he rode off to Texas with winnings -- about $600 million from bailing out of Peregrine before the collapse and another $700 million to possibly a billion on ballpark district real estate deals. Best, Don Bauder


Ponzi Nov. 16, 2010 @ 7:34 p.m.

No more empty seat deal. That was gone a long time ago.


Don Bauder Nov. 17, 2010 @ 2:14 p.m.

But pro sports teams have gone on to more sophisticated scams than seat guarantees. Best, Don Bauder


nan shartel Nov. 18, 2010 @ 1:06 p.m.

the Chargers et all have bankrupted the hearts and minds of many San Diegan's

how in cripes sake does the city and or state get itself into this kind of chit!!!???

i know pupster...it makes deals with criminals

since we're the ones being fleeced i demand we get a better team then the Chargers out of it

this lil lamb say's bbhhhhhaahhhhhhh !!! :-((

Don says:We're talking about money. What's gratitude? Best, Don Bauder

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...i hope our gratitude mean more then money to some Don...please give me some little ray of hope there r better kind of peeps around :-CI


Don Bauder Nov. 18, 2010 @ 1:47 p.m.

I don't know of a single professional sports team owner who is more interested in civic gratitude money. Best, Don Bauder


nan shartel Nov. 18, 2010 @ 2:19 p.m.

eeyore say's "u b right pooh"~~sigh~~

i guess the public in every way has been sacrificed on the alter of GREED

and as i read this i REALLY feel old!!!

i have grave fears for my grandchildren and their children...about what kind of world they'll have to live in if this tide of GREED and CORRUPTION can't be stemmed

oh and i 2 love ur new comment format!!!


Don Bauder Nov. 18, 2010 @ 7:48 p.m.

You've heard the old story: a guy is asked whether the world's biggest enemy is ignorance or apathy. The response: "I don't know and I don't give a damn." Best, Don Bauder


nan shartel Nov. 18, 2010 @ 8:45 p.m.

good ones Bauder..hahahahahaha...see u r intelligent and funny...;-D


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