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refriedgringo's avatar

David Dodd

David Dodd is a Reader contributor. See staff page for published articles.

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The Stock Market Roller Coaster

Regarding Taleb, Jeff is a fan. I am not, I find his diatribe nothing more than butterflies and B.S. I don't find anything he has to say or write as useful. I respect him, but I don't buy into his theories. Regarding the invisible hand stuff, it isn't a tangible thing, it's a process. You work for someone with money, he or she gives you a bonus for Christmas, that's an example. He or She doesn't want to lose your services or for whatever reason enjoys giving you a bonus. It isn't out of whatever kindness they show to you, it's entirely separated from charity. It is, conceivably, out of selfishness. But that is the invisible hand, it can (and usually is) entirely self-serving on their part. But it contributes, regardless. If you want evidence, just ask anyone who works for anyone. It's really that simple.
— January 8, 2012 9:37 a.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

The big mistake that Reagan made (I've said this before in here) was PERMITTING government to regulate a supposed free market. It isn't truly free if you have a Fed controlling things, now is it? You can't execute an idea half-assed, that's my point. If you really want to see a free market in action is must be entirely divorced from government. It never has been, entirely. Think about what government uses to control the masses. It uses economics and religion. It seeks to get into bed with both. I'm not a 19-year old idealist here. I'm not thinking that anyone will realize this truth in even four generations from now. But one day in hundreds of years from today if this planet can manage not to blow itself up, someone is going to wake up and realize that the ruling class has screwed everything up from the start. Ruling class owns government. That's the biggest problem, this stupid free society isn't free, Don. It's owned. And maybe people will wake up in a few hundred years. The best transactions happen very far away from government or regulation. I trade you a very comfortable bed for those golf clubs you don't use. It's that simple. We don't need that regulated.
— January 8, 2012 9:23 a.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

I don't mind greed, so long as I can rely on such behavior when negotiating my way along life's path. I expect it. I depend on it when I bet a horse, and stay clear of the markets because I know better. Love is intangible. You can bait a sharp hook with it, but you won't catch many fish. I think when we're at our sharpest, we are able to cope with humankind's shortcomings, and celebrate her intangibles.
— January 8, 2012 9:06 a.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

If you examine your statement here, you will find the word "government" in every part of your logic-equation. What would happen, then, if you removed "government"?
— January 8, 2012 7:29 a.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

"1. Religion is a simple human invention. (Sure contradicts what you wrote yesterday.)" It doesn't contradict what I said yesterday. You don't understand the statement? Do you think God invented religion? Religion is a human invention, Fred. Regardless of our argument over the existence of some higher power, I though we could at least find some common ground here. -------------------- "2. Economic activities are always conducted in an honorable fashion because of the desire for the admiration of peers and underlings. (Any proof of that assertion?)" I didn't say they were "always" conducted in any particular way. It is a basic explanation of Adam Smith's "invisible hand". I'm getting the feeling that Smith's philosophies are difficult for you to grasp. In essence, you can't have wealth and not share it, otherwise the wealth does you no good to have. You can sleep on a mattress stuffed with money and live in poverty if you don't spend it. That would be pointless. Even if you are Scrooge, Tiny Tim still eats, regardless whether or not the ghosts scare you into some convoluted idea about charity. I have no idea how much more clear I can make this. ---------------------- "3. So therefore, the "Invisible Hand" is nonsense to neo-Keynesians. (Huh?)" Neo-Keynesians (you and Don are apparently both neo-Keynesians, from an economically philosophical standpoint) abhor any part of economic theory that isn't tangible enough to be rolled into some equation. For example, Adam Smith believed that automatically goods would always be better off manufactured and services would be better off rendered on a local level. He believed this BECAUSE of the "invisible hand" ideal. Neo-Keynesians think that's utter nonsense, because it doesn't work in their equations. You are witnessing the results of neo-Keynesian economics right now. Tax the hell out of local businesses, force them to manufacture elsewhere (because PROFIT is WHY people own businesses and they WILL do what is in their best interests), regulate the hell out of them, and the invisible hand will not serve its purpose. San Diego is your example, my friend. Nothing is built here anymore. By your standards, based on what you have to say about Jeff, San Diego is killing babies. It contributes nothing.
— January 8, 2012 7:14 a.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

It's going to be difficult to keep the discussion rational if we view a very simple invention like religion on such a polar scale. We will need to get back to that at some point here, you will see the value in how it weighs into the discussion later. The most important part of this discussion centers on the nature of humankind, economics in general strives to predict human behavior. A seemingly simple word, for example, that Don uses a lot is "greed". Understanding greed as a concept means that one must understand charity as a concept. Charity and greed are not inherited through genetics. They are learned behavior, gained through social interaction. Which is a good link to Adam Smith's philosophies. The "invisible hand" has been hijacked, conceptually, as Smith never actually used the phrase much in his writings. The idea is that all social transactions will eventually seek their own level (much like one could pour water into a ditch in order to reckon building a level retaining wall). It isn't an intentional idea in terms of some moral obligation. It is more simple than that. If I have an apple grove, then were I some greedy bastard I would be rich in apples, to whatever end I wanted to be rich in apples. But I can't possibly pick all of them myself. Thus, others will benefit, regardless of whether I find any moral satisfaction in that or not; because my neighbors will be given the opportunity to harvest the apples in exchange for keeping some, or by whatever other contract I care to offer. And that contract, by necessity, must be worthwhile for my neighbors lest the fruit rot on the tree or on the ground. And now that I'm a rich apple-farmer, my inter circle includes other people of similar means. We all have reputations to uphold, we are expected to behave in a manner that society mandates. It isn't enough to simply grow apple trees, it is to grow them in a manner that is not only respectful and admirable to my peers, but also to those looking up at me from a less advantageous position. However, it would do little or no good to be charitable for the sake of being charitable. Because if I give away my apples and my trees, then whatever good has come from being an apple farmer (in terms of how I have contributed to the betterment of society in general) is now gone from society. The "invisible hand" is simply that act of contributing to society unintentionally by doing what is in my best interest. Take away my orchard, or worse, regulate it, and you diminish or eliminate that contribution. It isn't something to "believe in", there's no magic there. The invisible hand is simply not tangible enough to be put into some big eff-off macroeconomic equation. So obviously, neo-Keynesians think it's nonsense.
— January 8, 2012 5:15 a.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

Reminds me of a non-religious joke I actually take credit for creating. Q: How many neo-Keynesians does it take to change a light bulb? A: Print more money.
— January 7, 2012 12:24 p.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

Fred and Fan, for starters. Nothing spells "reelection" like enabling poor people to buy houses, it started 20 years ago and every administration encouraged it. The government enabled that bubble by creating supply where there shouldn't have been a demand. So when bankers grew concerned over their bad debt, the SEC allowed slop-bucket derivatives to absorb the instant impact of bad debt. Too bad they didn't lay that out in the commodities exchange, the World would have seen how worthless they were right away. And people want to occupy Wall Street. They should be occupying the White House. Government are the enablers.
— January 7, 2012 12:08 p.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

I'm not calling you names, Fred. That's not my style. I also don't rely on Google much, also not my style. I am, I suppose, a Platonist, in that dialogue is a better way of expressing philosophy than is rhetoric. What name did I call you? Tell me and I'll certainly apologize. And, most religions do not incorporate belief. Neither does atheism. Both are based on faith. Not on proof.
— January 7, 2012 11:59 a.m.

The Stock Market Roller Coaster

Asset bubbles are created by government intervention. Where did you study history?
— January 7, 2012 8:01 a.m.

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