I have been a bit of a broken record on this subject but I feel it is WAY too important to ignore. Studying your ballot books and doing your homework does absolutely NO good if our elections are not honest. In light of a recent article in CityBeat and the OB Rag drawing attention to our registrar, Deborah Seiler, and her suspect job as the registrar of voters, I decided to discuss this topic again. Please research all of this on your own and decide for yourself. There is way too much at stake here and we need to educate ourselves on the voting process here in San Diego in order to ensure our votes are counted.

With literally billions of tax dollars at stake do not discount the potential and the impetus for special interests to "buy" the results.

Here is the CityBeat article detailing how Seiler is misleading people into thinking they are ineligible to vote.

http://www.sdcitybeat.com/sandiego/article-8307-discouraging-democracy.html#commAjax

I was happy to find the OB Rag was all over this story as well.... http://obrag.org/?p=26026

They make a brilliant point about Diebold (Seiler was the Sales Rep for Diebold that sold us our scanners and ALL ballots are counted by Diebold optical scanners)

"Diebold is publicly traded and listed on the New York Stock Exchange as ‘DBD’. The Diebold Company itself earns more revenue as a Military Defense Contractor than in the manufacture and sales of voting equipment. But you have to scrutinize their website to learn this information. The more one familiarizes oneself with voting equipment vendors…the more defense contractors and intelligence connections seems to surface."

Here is another recent article in the Wall Street Journal stating that the corruption in Bell California began with "voter fraud" and it begs us to examine the integrity of our system.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703309704575413393066886472.html

In addition to this my personal experience with San Diego's election affairs has been quite disturbing. I was at a bar 2 weeks ago on a Sunday night and there was a booth set up to convince people to become mail-in voters. There were 2 people going around with clipboards, literally shoving the clipboards in front of people at the bar who were trying to enjoy their cocktails or dinner and aggressively strong-arming them into changing their voter status PERMANENTLY to mail-in.

I was outraged and found it more than unprofessional and inappropriate and confronted them. This was not an effort to register people to vote, it was an effort just to get them to change their status.

I have also received at least 10 letters from the registrar strongly encouraging me to be a mail in voter. Read the above story in the Wall Street Journal. This is almost exactly what occurred in Bell California just prior to the election of their now-indicted officials. The City launched a massive and aggressive campaign to get people to permanently change their status to "mail-in" so they had more control over the ballots.

I recently found this: looks like an organization is quite concerned about Seiler and how her version of running our election doesn't need checks and balances, it just requires us to "trust her"

http://www.psephos-us.org/Documents/Psephos_Response%20to%20KPBS_Seiler%20Interview_6-11-07.pdf

The following is from a piece I wrote 2 years ago raising alarms about the registrar and the safety of our voting system.

One of the main things they tell you to look for to spot election fraud is a registrar that changes from precinct tabulation to centralized tabulation. Its one of the 1st pieces of info I found immediately: http://usacoup.scoop.co.nz/?p=650

"Some of the places to look for problems in CA are: 1) counties that use central (rather than precinct-based) tabulation (identified below); 2) counties that have voter registrars with bad attitudes"

" In “central tabulator” systems, ballots-VVPATs, electronic data, voting machines and poll logs, etc., are conveyed to a central location before any vote tally occurs, thus creating more acute “chain of custody” problems, and removing the tabulation process further from voters and citizen observers".

More secure, huh Deborah? Seems there are alot of Republicans pushing for this "more secure" centralized tabulation method.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/fromtopemails/100971.php

Makes sense to me. I mean 1 way tons of people would have to conspire to give false results, the other way 1 person or a few people could change the results (especially if that centralized tabulator was connected to any sort of modem). Plus, if this were, in fact the case, then why did Seiler originally say she was switching to centralized tab because she didn't order enough precinct tally machines?

KPBS San Diego's Registrar Urges Absentee Voters to Get Ballots in Soon

http://www. kpbs. org/news/local;id=11911

"All the paper ballots will have to be brought to the Registrar's office to be counted this year, instead of being counted at the polling places. That's because the Registrar hasn't been able to purchase enough tally machines for every precinct."

And it was her decision? You have got to be kidding me. First of all Seiler sold us the Diebold electronic voting machines. It was public outcry that forced the city to get rid of them. What people dont realize is that those beautiful, tangible, paper ballots you carefully and very proudly colored in today are scanned by ....a Diebold electronic voting machine that is just as easy to hack.

And if Seiler is so concerned with security why did she sue Deborah Bowen when Bowen tightened recount rules?

I mean this article, is like listening to Dick Cheney talk about liberating people in Iraq.

http://www.sandiegopolitico.com/2007/12/san-diego-still-hates-clean-elections.html

Yep, Seiler sued saying that if an election is within half a percentage point then she should only have to recount 1% of the votes. Bowen insisted on recounting 10%.

Additionally the all Republican Board of Supervisors hired Deborah Seiler and Michael Vu to run the election---Vu was the elections director in the infamous Ohio 2004 election, and Seiler was the sales rep for both Diebold and Sequoia, 2 of the most controversial voting machine manufacturers.:

http://citizensboe. blogspot. com/2007/05/back-to-vu-san-diego-cas-whole. html

"Seiler's hiring was the second decision by the county in the last month or so to raise questions from election watchdogs." Wired Magazine

"Joining Seiler in the San Diego elections office is another election official beleaguered by controversy -- Michael Vu. Until recently, Vu was the elections director in Cuyahoga County in Ohio . He resigned in the wake of a number of critical reports depicting problems with how his office conducted elections and how machines made by Diebold performed. His resignation also followed the conviction of two election workers in his office who were found guilty of rigging a recount in the 2004 presidential election. Vu was recently made assistant registrar of voters in San Diego ." Wired Magazine http://blog. wired. com/27bstroke6/2007/05/former_diebold_. html

But come on, surely we vetted Seiler and Vu before we hired them. I'm sure the ALL Republican County Board of Supervisors did vet them and they liked what they saw. A team that could change the course of history with a few tricks and ensure the Board was re-elected.

Today, I went to the polls and I kept my eyes open since last Feb. voters sued because ballot boxes came to the Registrars office without seals. These seals are stickers, for one. But the ballot box I placed my ballot into had the sticker on so loose, you could literally pull the top off pull some ballots out and put the lid back on and no one would no the difference. I called the Democratic Party to complain. They were aware of the Seiler Vu situation and they did express concern. I just don't know what they could actually do. The registrar has enormous amount of authority for an unelected position

But, who are these people that drive the ballots from the precincts to the registrar? And what is to keep them from pulling ballots out and throwing them away (just like they did in Ohio 2004). I mean the people in charge of the security are Seiler and Vu, both of whom are under an enormous cloud of suspicion.

I made several phone calls about my concerns today and I was shocked to hear that many people that you would report these concerns to, have no idea how the process works or that Seiler and Vu are running the show. Everytime I asked a question about the security process they said that the registrar of voters in charge of that, like that was supposed to give me comfort. Talk about the Fox guarding the hen house.

We have got to make sure this thing is honest for once.

KNOW YOUR RIGHTS AT THE POLLS

1: If you get to the polls and they tell you you are not on the list, insist on getting a "provisional" ballot.

2: If there is a problem w/ the voting machines, insist on an "emergency ballot" (aka paper). Dont leave w/o filling out a ballot. It is your right.

3: Take a camera. make sure the ballot boxes are sealed.

4: 1-866-our-vote: Call to report any problems or issues.

And go rock the vote!!! UPDATES Check out the HBO Documentary "Hacking Democracy" In 2012 a major Spanish company Scytl bought the biggest US vote counting software company SOE. The following is quote by Bev Harris addressing these concerns.

"In a major step towards global centralization of election processes, the world’s dominant Internet voting company has purchased the USA’s dominant election results reporting company.

When you view your local or state election results on the Internet, on portals which often appear to be owned by the county elections division, in over 525 US jurisdictions you are actually redirected to a private corporate site controlled by SOE software, which operates under the name ClarityElections.com."

Comments

a2zresource Nov. 2, 2010 @ 9:02 a.m.

Taken together, the strands that are brought together here seem to reveal a web of SOMETHING worth being concerned about. I have been analyzing other issues, but this post is certainly deserving of further attention and scrutiny.

If the people lose confidence in the voting process of a democracy, then there is a real threat of future anarchy. Officials who excel in creating conditions for breeding anarchy may very well be enemies of the people.

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Founder Nov. 2, 2010 @ 11:41 a.m.

Great factual Post!

I'd like to add that a large number of "Volunteers" should be paired in random, to spot check all aspects of the voting process and especially all the behind the scenes tabulation procedures. For those "technical" processes, there should be enough Techie pairs to monitor that also.

If these teams also had video cameras, the entire process would be subject to oversight and that to me would help everyone "trust" the"system"...

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historymatters Nov. 2, 2010 @ 1:59 p.m.

Thanks you guys. You are always 2 of my favorite posters w/ your comments on all blogs.

Yes we really really need people behind the scenes watching everything. We need a system that is self-auditing. As it is now the registrar is ultimately in charge of everything and if she is possibly corrupt then she can take the entire election down.

....specially w/ mail-in votes!!!! Most people dont realize how unsafe your mail-in vote is. It changes hands several times so if it even makes it to actually be voted then ultimately the registrar, Deborah Seiler reviews each ballot to verify if your signature on the ballot matches the signature they received when you registered.

In other words Seiler has ALL the power over mail-in ballots. She can toss any ballot she wants and just claim the signature does not match.

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Founder Nov. 2, 2010 @ 2:39 p.m.

Reply #3 I never knew that and wonder what checks and balances they are to prevent $EILER$ from well, $elling Out?

Every step of the election process should have random and planned oversight to insure that ALL VOTES ARE FAIRLY COUNTED!

I've called Channel 10's TIP Line* ((619) 237-6383) and suggested that they also "look into" this potential mail in ballot "problem"...

FYI: I also enjoy yours and want to thank you for taking the time to post such factual posts!

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Evelyn Nov. 2, 2010 @ 4:07 p.m.

This reminds me of a postsecret I saw sometime ago... The secret was about the sender trashing any ballot that had voted yes on Prop 8... I tried looking for it to no avail. If anyone has it, or finds it, please post it?

Voting is practically the one democratic process I still believe and have trust in... too bad the government sucks A55.

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 12:07 a.m.

I just dont believe these results at all. I dont believe for a second that Horn and Roberts won so easily when they are extremely unpopular incumbants. There is no worse handicap this election season than being an incumbant and I dont buy that the County Board of Sups is continually again and again re-elected when the registrar of voters deborah seiler is their employee and is dependent on them for her job.

I also dont believe that 70% of voters voted to allow continued tract home development along route 56 in a proposition placed on the ballot by Pardee homes. Come on people. Wake up. This election was bought and paid for.

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jbjd Nov. 3, 2010 @ 7:42 a.m.

historymatters, this is the first time I have clicked on the share buttons and cross-posted a complete article on my blog. THE FIRST TIME. I think this story is that important. "I made several phone calls about my concerns today and I was shocked to hear that many people that you would report these concerns to, have no idea how the process works..." Chills.

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Founder Nov. 3, 2010 @ 8:35 a.m.

Reply #6 & #7

Is their some way to have "them" prove that all the numbers are correct?

Would a recount be helpful since then all the numbers would have to match!

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a2zresource Nov. 3, 2010 @ 9:18 a.m.

Unfortunately, I have lost confidence in local elections after looking at some of the links provided above.

Because this is my personal problem, I have no public challenge to the results from this county to be certified by the state. It does mean that I have little to no faith in what local elected and appointed politicians tell us unless they are capable of putting it in sufficiently understandable terms that I don't feel like I am on the losing end of an overly-complex financial scam.

For anyone who thinks I am going to disappear because I chose not to vote, think again. I am certainly not waiving any right to free expression here or anywhere else. People deserve facts, and if I can dig some of them up, then they are coming out.

I was referring to buried facts, not buried people.

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 4:07 p.m.

azr: thanks!!! Please dont go away!!! I love all your posts. I think if we raise awareness hopefully the citizens will demand Seiler leave and our elections be restructured.

The 1 thing I am hoping is that this big win for Roberts and Bill Horn is so beyond obvious fraud that people will demand answers. There is no way in this political climate that these Sups are so popular they are being elected to serve lifetime positions as dictators.

Obviously we see the circle. The Sups hires the registrar that makes sure the Sups are re-elected. They need her and she needs them.

I love that the OB Rag is on it. It would be great if we could investigate what Seiler's pension plan is. Im sure it ridiculous like the others but it would still be good to see. They have to keep her very motivated to keep her job w/ some sort of golden carrot.

I'd like to see some investigative reporting on Seiler's finances like does she own a home and how much did she pay for it, etc. Lets see if any reporters have the ball$ to do it.

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 4:15 p.m.

I tried so hard to get Aguirre to see this before they booted him but he wouldnt listen he was still under the impression that the election was "an election". I do not believe the citizens voted for a strong mayor if for no other reason we would not vote to spend a million dollars to create a new council seat and Sanders isnt exactly popular.

I dont believe Aguirre lost. There was too much at stake and they needed Aguirre out. Sure there were people that didnt like him and didnt vote for him but Goldsmith was no prize and people knew that. He was a hardcore, corrupt politician w/ a sliver of support in the polls.....less than 20%.

So, I can say w/ the utmost certainty that the last 2 elections were rigged in some way or another. Plus the turnout was anemically low which made no sense in a year w/ such big ticket items. 3 times as many people voted for mayor in the infamous Donna Frye debaucle. They could not risk that sort of public victory again so they hired Seiler and Vu.

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 4:17 p.m.

So I will be the squeaky wheel on this issue and keep playing this broken record as more and more and more evidence surfaces until someone listens. Luckily, we have the OB Rag and the North County Times and even City Beat sounding alarms. We just have to stay on them.

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 4:26 p.m.

jbjd: Thank you for cross-posting!!! Like I said if can raise enough awareness we can demand Seiler and Vu be fired and the process restructured before 2012. This is SO important. I hope people will do their own investigating so we can put the big picture together.....together:)

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 4:29 p.m.

@Founder, unfortunately Seiler who gets to structure our elections has structured it in a way that there are no real checks and balances. It is the "just trust me" approach.

Check out the link to this group. They were specifically complaining that the process has NO checks or balances. And we cant demand a recount unless the election is w/in 1 % point.

http://www.psephos-us.org/Documents/Psephos_Response%20to%20KPBS_Seiler%20Interview_6-11-07.pdf

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 5:33 p.m.

http://www.sandiego6.com/content/news/election/default.aspx

I like to look at the results a bit to see if anything seems off so please feel free to comment and correct me because its really confusing as to who in SD votes for what but I am trying to get an idea of a race I can compare the Supervisors race to to see if the numbers seem right.

Seems like the same people voting for SD County Sup would be voting for these props? Am I correct? I could be totally wrong so bare w/ me here....

OK some things I find interesting about these numbers: Prop C is a Prop no one had even heard of. Even the papers were touting it as "low-key" C because of the non-campaign to promote it (which I believe was so there would be no organized opposition) Anyway this rather tiny Prop got alot of votes. I find it odd that Prop C which was really about expanding tract home growth in a small 1900 home community received 233,460 votes....70% positive for the developer Pardee Homes.

So I am still not sure if people that voted for other Sup races had these Propositions listed below so if anyone lives in a diff Supervisor area and can tell me if C, D, or J were on their ballots that would be really helpful. Thanks!

Only 100,000 people voted for Supervisor between Whitburn and Roberts which seems quite low but I dont know enough to say that w/ certainty.

Prop J SD Unified School District Parcel Tax Votes % of Votes No 94783 50.15%
Yes 94215 49.85%
100.0% Precincts Reporting Total: 188,998

Prop C Pacific Highlands Ranch Development Votes % of Votes Yes 164097 70.29%
No 69363 29.71%
100.0% Precincts Reporting

Total: 233,460

Prop D City of San Diego 1/2 Cent Sales Tax Increase Votes % of Votes No 160154 62.05%
Yes 97950 37.95%
100.0% Precincts Reporting

Total: 258,104

Here is County Wide Governor Meg Whitman 329506 50.47%
Edmund G. Brown 286095 43.82%

total 615,601

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 5:37 p.m.

Sorry here are the Board of Sups numbers. 100,000 votes in this race. Seems low to me but maybe not.

Board of Supervisors District 4 Votes % of Votes Ron Roberts 57096 57.31%
Stephen Whitburn 42537 42.69%
100.0% Precincts Reporting

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 5:53 p.m.

One race that is REALLY interesting to me is the Secretary of State. So Bowen has actually done quite a decent job tightening recount rules. Bowen plays a big role in the integrity of our elections (unfortunately not big enough). Seiler recently sued her for tightening these recount rules.

Look at the difference between San Diegos results for Secretary of State and the entire State. The difference is actually jaw dropping. It may not seem like much but statistically there should not be this drastic of a difference. Bowen wins by 15% in the State....that is a landslide and loses by 1% here. I just think it is a red flag considering Seiler's "bad attitude" and lawsuit against Bowen. I hope Bowen is paying attention and will look into this.

STATE Debra Bowen 3786174 53.1%
Damon Dunn 2751863 38.6%
TOTAL: 6,538,037

COUNTY Damon Dunn 287462 46.39%
Debra Bowen 280258 45.23%
TOTAL: 567,720

Deborah Bowen won by a landslide but she lost to Damon Dunn in San Diego. Damon Dunn is an ex-pro football player and a real estate agent in Orange County being pushed by the land developers. Did he really command such a big vote?

Most people if they didnt know the candidates would leave something like Secretary of State blank like they did w/ the judges and other offices that they didnt know anything about.

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Founder Nov. 3, 2010 @ 6:42 p.m.

Reply to #17 I suggest that you email a2zresource as he LOVES math and statists!

It would be interesting to get his read on this topic!

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 7:19 p.m.

thanks Founder!! Yeah someone w/ a stats background would be great. If you look at all the races they are pretty consistent w/in a point or 2 between SD and the State as a whole, but the Sec State thing is downright bizarre....15% points. Because if you think about it that means the rest of the state voted even greater than the 53/38 spread in order for the results to average since SD is a big portion of the average.

That means the rest of the state excluding SD would have had a pretty significantly bigger vote for Bowen and lower vote for Damon Dunn.....so that would be Sacramento, Oakland, SF, LA and Orange County and we know Orange County is very Repub and Sacramento is quite Repub as well. I think its a pretty alarming spread considering the other races are pretty close.

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 9:48 p.m.

OK I am browsing some pre-Seiler election results which were quite difficult to find. If you go to the registrars website and click past elections and click 2008, or 2004 (pre seiler) the page says (sorry the page has been moved or removed w/ no clue how to find it) I was able to locate it a different way but check this out....

Look at the totals 457,000+ voted for mayor pre-seiler

I cant for the life of me get the other years when I click 2008 presidential results it only gives me a page w/ the write-ins but I know the numbers didnt look like this.

This is about how many people voted in the maoyoral race where Frye was elected so that makes sense and is pretty consistent.

So why in 2008 after Seiler was it less than 1/2 that?

City attorney is pretty interesting as well, about 500,000 voted this year. I can recall the exact figure that got us Goldsmith but again I know it was less than half. I think I actually may have it copied in my records.....

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/voters/Eng/E2004.shtml 2004 CITY OF SAN DIEGO - MAYOR Total Number of Precincts 843 Precincts Reporting 843 100.0 % Vote For 1 Total Votes 457506 DICK MURPHY 157959 34.53% RON ROBERTS 141884 31.01%

CITY OF SAN DIEGO CITY ATTORNEY Total Number of Precincts 843 Precincts Reporting 843 100.0 % Vote For 1 Total Votes 411332 MICHAEL J. AGUIRRE 206594 50.23% LESLIE DEVANEY 203301 49.43%

CITY OF SAN DIEGO CITY COUNCIL - District No. 1 Total Number of Precincts 150 Precincts Reporting 150 100.0 % Vote For 1 Total Votes 69841 SCOTT PETERS 38087 54.53% PHIL THALHEIMER 31535 45.15%CITY OF SAN DIEGO CITY

PROP B - COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO Repeal Gregory Canyon Landfill Total Number of Precincts 2235 Precincts Reporting 2235 100.0 % Vote For 1 Total Votes 1021936 NO 649915 63.60% YES 372021 36.40%

PROP D - CITY OF SAN DIEGO PEOPLES ACCESS TO INFO Total Number of Precincts 843 Precincts Reporting 843 100.0 % Vote For 1 Total Votes 409256 YES 337887 82.56% NO 71369 17.44%

PROP F - CITY OF SAN DIEGO STRONG MAYOR GOVERNMENT Total Number of Precincts 843 Precincts Reporting 843 100.0 % Vote For 1 Total Votes 407870 YES 209773 51.43% NO 198097 48.57%

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 10:01 p.m.

Yeah Seiler has taken down the page that will show us these results. I tried it from the registrars site and this one. Click on the lower left (this is 2008) "election results"

http://www.smartvoter.org/2008/11/04/ca/sd/

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/voters/results/GENERAL1.xml

you get this message....

"Our apologies...

The page you were trying to reach cannot be found. It may have been removed, had its address changed, or be temporarily unavailable. Please try one of the following options:

•Use the search box in the upper right corner of this page. •Check our lists of County services or County departments. If those don’t help, contact us. Please complete the form below, which will be e-mailed to our Webmaster. Or send your e-mail directly to webmaster@sdcounty.ca.gov." Same message for other years."

I will keep trying to find it another way. At least I got 04. Glad I copied the results.

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 10:41 p.m.

OK so luckily someone else copied the results. MAYORAL RACE 2008 Total: 214,572

so in 2004 you had more than twices as many people vote for mayor.... Total there was 457,506

Boy they do not make this EASY at all!!! I am trying to find past results in numbers not percentages for Supervisor and I cant find anything.

This is as close as I can get so far.... http://www.sdcta.org/Uploads/Documents/Prop%20B%20-%20County%20of%20San%20Diego%20Supervisor%20Term%20Limits,%203-19-10,%20AH_0.pdf

is this right that Ron Roberts has been Supervisor since 1994? Greg Cox since 1996 Jacobs since 1992, Horn since 1994 and Slater Price since 1992.

This is really blowing me away and Im sure other people already knew this but oh my God if there was ever an argument for why these elections are rigged its right there. You mean the voters love these guys so much they have ALL been re-elected 4 or 5 times!!!! for 4 year terms.....16 years is the least amount of time 1 of these guys has served? 20 years for some. How in the world is no one crying foul or fraud?

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historymatters Nov. 3, 2010 @ 10:54 p.m.

sorry I am wrong about what I said about Aguirre getting less than 1/2 that in 2008. It was only about 50,000 less votes which is still pretty substantial so who knows on that one but I think it would have been enough votes to dump to change the results.

Im totally confused in this matrix. All I know is something really deosnt seem right and if we need a smoking gun forget the numbers the fact that EVERY supervisor has been re-elected at least 4 times for a total of 16 years is evidence enough.

And its great that we passed a prop limiting their terms but guess what they are all ready to retire now anyway and Seiler is still in charge of who wins the next round. The people need to be addressing the problem that the Supervisor elections are rigged not that the same people keep winning.

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Founder Nov. 4, 2010 @ 5:51 p.m.

This is great info and needs to be considered by all those that value our voting process in the name of Freedom.

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nan shartel Nov. 5, 2010 @ 3:19 p.m.

super blog here :-{}

much to be considered...voting boxes have always been as suspect as the issues and candidates are

i spent much of my youth voting scarcely for these exact reasons

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a2zresource Nov. 5, 2010 @ 9:07 p.m.

This whole thing has me holding my head in my hands in pain and disgust.

If I had the cash, I'd be investing it in firearms and canned goods instead of solar panels, batteries and jumper cables.

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Founder Nov. 6, 2010 @ 9:16 a.m.

Reply #27 I'm guessing that our DOLLAR will get seriously devaluated very soon, so you might consider researching a listing of those items that become more valuable "afterward". (Seeds, fertilizer, batteries, silver coins etc.)

If SD declines into civil unrest, then large gangs will take over and all the arms and food you have, will only make you a larger target for them.

I've also heard that Yuma is a good get away, destination because it is surrounded by large expanses of dessert and they have a large Military Base there, so it could be defended, resupplied by air and or isolated quite easily!

This might make a great Blog topic!

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