Blogs | Beyond The Big Metal Fence
Flowerbeds Of Narcissism
By refriedgringo | Posted October 22, 2009, 3:13 p.m.
If we exist believing that our views and opinions are not correct, second-guessing our every movement according to our insecurities, then we’ll not likely ever gain the capability for learning much of anything. Freud felt that narcissism was an essential human characteristic, for several reasons, sexuality aside. Anyone who writes anything is practicing such narcissism. It's mostly healthy. While I’m not a psychologist, I highly recommend writing in order to promote one’s healthy narcissistic side.
When does narcissism become a problem? I am in no position to say, but would rather trust Dr. Sandy Hotchkiss, the author of "Why is it Always About You? The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism." In the book, Hotchkiss defines the sins as shamelessness, magical thinking, arrogance, envy, entitlement, exploitation, and bad boundaries. It would follow, then, that healthy narcissism should contain elements of gracefulness, logical thinking, humility, contentment, generosity, helpfulness, and respectfulness. This is a pretty good tool to use when it comes to writing, which is entirely narcissistic, whether it’s a note on a postcard or an entire epic novel.
When we write, the most important rule in general is to be ourselves. People have no choice but to judge each other based on the written word, it’s all we have unless we meet in meat-space rather than cyber-space. The first rule pretty much has to be such honesty because without honesty it becomes impossible to determine anything else. We should rather want to see honest shamelessness than dishonest gracefulness, and so on. I would rather want to see that one ugly weed in the flowerbed than to pretend it isn’t there. The flowers are just as beautiful, regardless.
Anyone who writes or comments on the internet who has committed any of the seven narcissistic sins, raise your hand. My hand is up. Your hand should also be up. Yes, yours. All of yours. You’ve committed those sins and you’ll do it again. So will I. It’s okay. It’s part of being honest.
Think of a body of writing, or a bundle of comments, or anything posted by an individual on the internet as a flowerbed. It’s pretty easy sometimes to see the weeds in someone else’s flowerbed. It’s even easier to point them out to the gardener, although where opinions are concerned, one person’s weed is another person’s flower, and on and on. But the most effective way to get someone to weed his or her flowerbed is to weed your own. People are, by nature, quite comparative, and tend their gardens based on how attractive yours might be.
Poetry,refried. Pure poetery. Hopefully this will get through to some people who like to practice what they preach.
By PistolPete 4 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
But it doesn't exclude either of us, Pete. That's probably more important than anyone else who might read this. It's just as much a self-affirmation of what I need to do as it is advice for someone else. We're all guilty, it's part of who we are.
By refriedgringo 4:12 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
I took it as that refried. Believe me,I thought of myself and not in a narcissistic way either....LMAO!
By PistolPete 4:22 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
ur da man homey!!!
this one put the salsa on the refrieds gringo
By nan 4:33 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
Thanks, nan, I'm really glad you enjoyed it :)
By refriedgringo 4:43 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
It's good that someone brought up the concept of a healthy narcissism--Freud would add that it isn't just a human characteristic, it is more of an 'essence.' Without it, we couldn't exist as sentient beings. Lacan would take this even further, if that is possible :)
refried:
"I am in no position to say, but would rather trust Dr. Sandy Hotchkiss, the author of "Why is it Always About You? The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism."" Like that title. I have not read her or heard of her--does she say what body of theory she is going on, or is it general self-help, without reference?
refried:
"If we exist believing that our views and opinions are not correct, second-guessing our every movement according to our insecurities, then we’ll not likely ever gain the capability for learning much of anything."
Thaaat does not seem to be a problem of many people writing here. :)
Flowerbed fertilizer:
I mentioned on Pete's thread that I have done, studied, and still do a fair amount of casual analysis; also on the side of 'health,' or 'necessity' (which is more what Freud would call it) you might also consider his ideas about this practice you describe as analysis itself. Freud and most analysts would claim that a tendency NOT to analyze one's opinions and emotional reactions in relation to perceptions of the world and others' realities (simply telling about yourself would not count here), and to be overly certain of one's conclusions, would prohibit intellectual and emotional growth. The work of self-questioning on top of self-telling also gave us such fabulous literary forms as the essay or 'essai,' (attempt), btw.
Naomi Wise has a cousin who wrote a book on narcissism, as it just so happens--can't find the title now, or the link, where we discussed it. AG? :)
By SDaniels 8:04 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
We should rather want to see honest shamelessness than dishonest gracefulness, and so on.
PS: I'd have to be a total idiot to not understand your writing this in support of a certain poster, refried, and against some of the observations of others about narcissistic behavior. I'm pretty much done with that topic. However, this is a great thread for potential discussion, and without knowing for sure, but in the theme of "Why is it always about you?" I would seriously challenge you to ever come up with an instance of sheer dishonesty, graceless or otherwise, in my writing :)
By SDaniels 8:09 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
SD: It really isn't my attempt to support or not support anyone, it's sort of based on observing some of the comments flying around in some of the blog entries (not only here, but everywhere on the internet). We're all guilty of it, and we all seem to desire to balance it out with good stuff, so I think there's hope for us. But really, in defining narcissism as something that is potentially necessary (therefore good, perhaps), we can see values in it, and then we can see pitfalls from it.
Consider this: One person spouts off, then apologizes. Other person doesn't see the apology as heartfelt. This really blew me away, because while I don't question the honesty of either, both seem narcissistic. The battle could rage on!
"I'm sorry I said bad things about you."
"I don't believe you, you're not sincere."
"Look I said I was sorry, I have no idea what more you want."
"I want you to not do that."
"But I said I was sorry..."
And so on. If one could revert to gracefulness, logical thinking, humility, contentment, generosity, helpfulness, and respectfulness, the conversation might go differently.
"I shouldn't have spouted off like that, it wasn't nice and I have to try not to do that anymore."
"It wasn't nice, but it's very brave of you to admit that, which makes me feel less hurt by it."
"In a way, I'm glad it happened because I learned something by it, and I don't want to lose someone's friendship over my own occasional frustrations."
"Let's put it behind us, then. There are more important things to concern ourselves with."
Silly? Perhaps. But not nearly as negatively narcissistic as an apology sent and an apology not accepted. Neither seem to be truly healthy.
By refriedgringo 8:50 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
I just posted this on my Internet Jukebox thread but I'll repost it here because it's such an epic masterpiece of profound proportions...
http://www.last.fm/music/Guns%2520N'%...
Estranged-G'n'R
When you're talkin to yourself.
And nobody's home.
You can fool yourself.
You came in this world alone
(Alone).
So nobody ever told you baby.
How it was gonna be.
So what'll happen to you baby.
Guess we'll have to wait and see
ONE, TWO.
Old at heart but I'm only 28.
And I'm much too young.
To let love break my heart.
Young at heart but it's getting much too late.
To find ourselves so far apart.
I don't know how you're s'posed.
To find me lately.
An what more could tou ask from me.
How could you say that I never needed you.
When you took everything.
Said you took everything from me.
Young at heart an it gets so hard to wait.
When no one I know can seem to help me now.
Old at heart but I musn't hesitate.
If I'm to find my own way out.
Still talkin' to myself.
and nobody's home
(Alone).
So nobody ever told us baby.
How it was gonna be.
So what'll happen to us baby.
Guess we'll have to wait and see.
When I find out all the reasons.
Maybe I'll find another way.
Find another day.
With all the changing seasons of my life.
Maybe I'll get it right next time.
An now that you've been broken down.
Got your head out of the clouds.
You're back down on the ground.
And you don't talk so loud.
An you don't walk so proud.
Any more, and what for.
Well I jumped into the river.
Too many times to make it home.
I'm out here on my own, an drifting all alone.
If it doesn't show give it time.
To read between the lines.
'Cause I see the storm getting closer.
And the waves they get so high.
Seems everything We've ever known's here.
Why must it drift away and die.
I'll never find anyone to replace you.
Guess I'll have to make it thru, this time- Oh this time
Without you.
I knew the storm was getting closer.
And all my friends said I was high.
But everything we've ever known's here.
I never wanted it to die.
By PistolPete 8:59 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
My last statement on this, because I agree with going on and putting things behind:
When apologies are presented with such clauses (true, no fine print) as 'I guess I'm sorry, but get used to it, because I'm an a-hole, and will continue to indulge my ire randomly upon anyone in my path,' and when calling people n****rs is considered some form of necessary free speech-related argumentation rather than a sign of social sickness, I'm out, dude.
That's not honesty; it is just evidence of self-delusion, a form of mal-developed and cruel self-gratification, lack of self-control, and...yep--sociopathy.
There's allll kinds of blog literature out there, and no lack of reading material. We're all free to make different choices, and that's what I plan to do. Finally, it isn't a question of accepting apologies or not--in the grand scheme of things, you're right--it doesn't matter a whit. It isn't about me, and my point has been made in any case.
If you want to talk about narcissism as an intellectual concept, or in regards to myself even--if you have something to say to me about it--I'm in, and will contribute.
By SDaniels 9:07 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
"Naomi Wise has a cousin who wrote a book on narcissism, as it just so happens--can't find the title now, or the link, where we discussed it. AG? :)"
Huh? I must've slept since then. Here's the one refried's talking about:
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Always-Abou...
Good reviews. Some of the titles on this topic are particularly delicious.
http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Vampi...
http://www.amazon.com/Wizard-Oz-Other...
http://www.amazon.com/Its-All-About-H...
And, my personal favorite:
http://www.amazon.com/Enough-About-Yo...
"Anyone who writes anything is practicing such narcissism."
That's a pretty broad stroke. Here's another: I'd say that anyone's opinion regarding the motivations of others is necessarily based on his own personal limitations. Psychologists call that one "projection." :)
Healthy narcissism is a single dandelion. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is obnoxious crabgrass that won't stay confined to its own little area and takes over the whole damn flowerbed with more of the same.
Now where did I put that gallon of Roundup?
;)
By antigeekess 9:23 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
AG sprinkled:
"Here's another: I'd say that anyone's opinion regarding the motivations of others is necessarily based on his own personal limitations. Psychologists call that one "projection.""
Annnddd that's what keeps psychoanalysis alive, and literature, and translation--and film. The stuff of projections. :)
By SDaniels 9:27 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
I think my point is missed. The act of apologizing to someone is not good, never will be, it's a selfish attempt at making one's self feel better after having been shameless. Being sorry for something is better, it implies humility, and involves self-realization. The former is bad narcissism, the latter is more healthy. Demanding or expecting an apology implies self-righteousness, which is arrogance. Shrugging it off and moving on is graceful.
To SD: I've told you what I think of you many times. I think you're smart, capable, and very understanding. I don't think you're any more narcissistic as is anyone else. We all have our tendencies here and there toward unhealthy at times, and we all balance it out with healthy stuff. I know that Pete pissed you off, and I know why. And I know that he knows why. I also know that you have more to do with the other side of Pete, the side of Pete we all enjoy, than anyone here. I can't tell you how to feel about it, but if I'm in you're shoes I'm pretty damned proud of myself to have such a positive effect on someone.
And Pete, you know you took way too many liberties when you arrived here at this website. You pissed some people off. For a while, they're going to throw it back in your face. This is what happens. You even pissed off certain people at the Reader, they didn't appreciate having to rake through your comments in case you posted something that violated their TOS. But, you've also managed to endear yourself to people recently. I'm going to go out on a limb and believe that you feel pretty good about that. And you should. Just try to not throw around dirt clods anymore, I'm sure you'll be fine.
And these are opinions, my opinions. No one has to agree with them, I don't mind.
By refriedgringo 9:42 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
If you two are such psychoanalyists,how come you don't have practices or licenses?
You guys have about as much experience analyzing people as my left nut. How's THAT for narcissism? :-D
By PistolPete 9:43 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
Sorry. Did I offend someone? http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y278...
I'm tired of this contrived tihsllub...
I said what I had to say. That wasn't good enough. Too bad. Get over yourselves.
It's funny. My first post was five days before the seventy-fifth anniversary of John Dilinger's death. I'm the new Public Enemy #1. I take pride in that.
By PistolPete 9:48 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
I would make a lousy psychoanalyst. Besides, that's what bartenders are for.
By refriedgringo 9:50 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
I'd go see my shrink more often but he charges way too much for a junior pitcher of tap beer. I bought 90 cans of MGD not too long ago for $20. If you can beat that,you're good!
By PistolPete 9:53 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
" You even pissed off certain people at the Reader, they didn't appreciate having to rake through your comments in case you posted something that violated their TOS."
It's a good thing I don't have a hard-on for celebrities then. :-D I guess you could say that I'm the only daddy that'll walk the line...
By PistolPete 9:59 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
"I think my point is missed. The act of apologizing to someone is not good, never will be, it's a selfish attempt at making one's self feel better after having been shameless. Being sorry for something is better, it implies humility, and involves self-realization."
Yes, an 'insincere' apology is not good. An apology without remorse is not an apology at all. It's an empty attempt to reconcile with someone so you can exploit them again.
As for demanding an apology, I can't recall that I've ever done it. If you have to ask for one, the one you're going to get isn't sincere anyway. Pointless.
So is attempting any kind of relationship with folks who are incapable of empathy, and who are all take and no give. At least they're consistent -- consistently selfish. You can predict that the short end of the stick is always yours. Unfortunately, this is a LOT of people. You've seen the T-shirt: The More I Know People, The More I Like My Dog.
Dogs are loyal -- to a fault. You can beat a dog, and he'll still hang around you and take more crap. Personally, I'm more like a cat. You do something undeniably s***ty, I'm just going to conclude that you're a dick, and interact as little as possible from now on. I vote with my feet. No apologies required.
As I've quoted before: "When people show you who they are, believe them. The FIRST time." -- Maya Angelou
...(whether Daniels likes her or not.) :P
By antigeekess 10:47 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
"If you two are such psychoanalyists,how come you don't have practices or licenses?"
Because I'd have to listen to f***ing narcissists all day.
By antigeekess 10:52 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
"An apology without remorse is not an apology at all."
All apologies are without remorse. Directing being sorry toward someone isn't accomplishing anything. One looks in the mirror when one is sorry. It's the only way that someone will change their ways.
And AG, none of this is directed toward you, or is about you. It really isn't about anyone, it's simply an opinion on narcissism, based on random comments I've read in here over the past couple of days. It is broad in scope and short on conclusion. And it's not going to win a Pulitzer Prize.
By refriedgringo 11:24 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
"All apologies are without remorse."
So you think there's no such thing as a sincere apology? I think that 'most' of them are insincere. But certainly not 'all' of them.
"Directing being sorry toward someone isn't accomplishing anything."
Sure it is. A 'sincere' apology communicates to the person wronged that the putz in question actually gives a s***. But in order to give a s***, one has to have the normal capacity for empathy. Which the narcissist does not.
"One looks in the mirror when one is sorry. It's the only way that someone will change their ways."
Sure. That'd be Step #1. But by itself, all that mirror-gazing is just more narcissism, IMO. As in, "Now I'm becoming a dandy person so that I may be proud of Me, and ride around on my high horsie while I gloat about my newfound enlightenment. And if I happen to run over anybody else while I'm riding my shiny new high horsie, well that's just too effin' bad."
:)
By antigeekess 11:44 p.m., Oct 22, 2009 > Report it
AG, for someone to give a s***, the argument can be made that they wouldn't have done anything requiring an apology in the first place. I'll give you an extreme example:
Friend comes into the bar, head held low. "She cheated on me," he says. He starts drinking heavy, lots of whiskey, and goes home sad.
A couple of days later, he comes in, orders up a beer, in much better spirits. I ask him what happened.
"She apologized. She cried, and told me how sorry she was. She wants to make it right. I think we'll be fine."
Obviously, I'm not going to give anything but positive praise to him, but after he leaves, I'm mumbling to myself. "You're marriage is over, pal."
She never looked herself in the mirror, she just did what she had to do in order to save her marriage. Talk about a high horse! The particular mirror-gazing I'm talking about isn't to find something pretty staring back, it's about finding an ugliness, and being sorry for having caused it. I reckon that we're a lot more accountable to ourselves than to each other.
By refriedgringo 12:10 a.m., Oct 23, 2009 > Report it
"AG, for someone to give a s***, the argument can be made that they wouldn't have done anything requiring an apology in the first place."
I say this all the time, and it applies to the thoughtless or malicious jerk who doesn't really give a s*** about the person he's apologizing to. But sometimes people are just stupid. Not malicious or callous, just stupid. As in, lacking the insight to know they were doing something hurtful. As in, an "honest mistake." They thought they were doing the right thing, but misjudged.
And yeah, you're probably right about your friend. He sounds like a doormat who's married to a wingnut, and it'll probably go just like you say. We really don't have enough data.
"She never looked herself in the mirror, she just did what she had to do in order to save her marriage."
Now, how do you know that?
As a writer, you have the luxury of making up characters and authoring their motivations all you like. To assume you know the motivations of real people is another thing altogether. Again, as I wrote back in #11:
I'd say that anyone's opinion regarding the motivations of others is necessarily based on his own personal limitations. Psychologists call that one "projection."
"Talk about a high horse! The particular mirror-gazing I'm talking about isn't to find something pretty staring back..."
I'm aware of this, of course.
"...it's about finding an ugliness, and being sorry for having caused it."
But if you don't make any attempt to make amends, it's just wallowing in self-flaggelation and playing the martyr to an audience of one -- yourself. Guilt-tripping as a form of ego aggrandizement. I'm familiar with the self-abusing martyr trip.
"I reckon that we're a lot more accountable to ourselves than to each other."
"More" accountable. But not exclusively.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGeZYe...
By antigeekess 12:46 a.m., Oct 23, 2009 > Report it
This is the actual video, AG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtGD6t...
By CuddleFish 12:55 a.m., Oct 23, 2009 > Report it
Well, the guy who's marriage failed in that story was me, the other guy was my bartender that confided in me later that he knew it was over. Hell, I knew it, too, I was just as much in denial about it as anyone. She cheated again, that's "how [I] know that". And she was a wing-nut. And so was I. Eventually, I grew up. I don't think she ever has.
But the most important lesson it taught me is that you make amends on the inside first. After that - and this is my opinion, yours may differ - an apology probably isn't even necessary. People see it, they feel it, they sense it in your words. It takes time, but it happens. At least, you hope it happens.
As a writer, I do have the luxury "of making up characters and authoring their motivations" all I like. But that wouldn't be honest. Even in fiction, you have to be true to yourself. Most great fiction is based on reality, even when it's speculative. All in all, it's all that we are. Speculating based on reality.
By refriedgringo 1:04 a.m., Oct 23, 2009 > Report it