Josh Board wrote an article entitled, “Kissing Cousins (errr, mothers) and Interracial Dating.” In that article he discussed oddities and extremes. He moved from talking about families and inappropriate displays of affection to interracial dating. This piece is in reaction to the latter part of his writing.

                                        ***

To summarize, Board discusses a letter written to Dear Abby in which a white woman was set up on a blind date with a black man. She was uninterested in him because she was “just not into” black guys. This woman was criticized by her friends. Dear Abby agreed with the criticism, Josh Board suggested disagreement and sundry bloggers and loyal readers of the SD Reader disagreed loudly with Abby. I also weighed into the discussion, citing the feelings of the African American man, “What if you told him to his face, ‘I’m just not into black guys.’ Is it appropriate then?”

Two readers/bloggers retorted that black women “smell musty” and they are just not attracted to them. Josh Board brought up the case of Halle Berry and how he doubted these readers would reject her under the jurisdiction of mustiness and course pubic hair.

This article and the reader responses put me in a funk for about a week and a half. I am a brown woman. I am a good looking woman. Many people have even called me beautiful. Am I simply not an option if I’m “just not your thing”?

My friend and I had a discussion in our carpool about the dangers of having any kind of type. She asked, “What’s you type, anyway?” “I don’t have one…yeah…I mean I guess I like nice strong arms. Is that a type? A beautiful man is a beautiful man. To be honest, I rarely see a truly striking man.”

She and I decided that you essentially paint yourself into a corner when you have a specific type. What is going on with humans that we won’t have sex with one another for so many reasons when we are also desperate to hook up?

When I was a young girl of about seven or eight years-old, other children alerted me to the fact that I was different. One day in the school yard a group of six surrounded me and inquisitively asked, “why are you a different color, why are your eyes so big, why do you speak in such a sing song voice, why is your lunch so different, why is your hair so long, etc, etc.” My eyes growing even larger, I answered every question, wondering why in fact these things were true. I began to wishfully imagine that I looked like the other girls. I wished I had blond hair, bangs and blue eyes. As you can imagine, this created quite a self-esteem and self-image issue.

Joseph, the second grade letch, confirmed it when he refused to chase me around the yard. He tried to lick all the other girls, why didn’t he attack me? Was this luck or something else? The evidence mounted as I hit junior high. I wasn’t a nerd. I had friends in all groups, yet other girls were getting first kisses or at least first dances. All the boys said hi and were friendly, but no one danced with me.

I did not let this follow me into high school. It was the age of grunge. I donned a uniform of black anything and combat books. I looked like MTV’s Daria (the cartoon). I purposely made myself ugly in order to not continue to explore the question of “many people think I’m pretty, but I seem to not be datable, why is that?”
When I got to college I put two and two together to find that our loyal San Diego readers are right. Many people just don’t even consider brown as a possibility unless it is a fetish. I rarely meet the man who sees my skin and sees that it is a part of my attractiveness, without fantasizes about every brown girl whether haggish or gorgeous.

The Undeniable Evidence: For a while, there was a mysterious other brown girl that roamed the streets of OB. Everywhere I went I was mistaken for her. People would begin talking to me then realize I wasn’t her. I was so curious. Was there another girl who looked exactly like me? Was I about to have a lifetime special about my separation at birth? I was so excited. I looked high and low for my doppelganger. I tracked her through the people who thought I was her. I investigated where they usually saw her and at what time and could they tell her I was tracking her.

One day, as I walked past the Chicken Kitchen with my friend Comic Boy. We finally spotted this brown enigma. At first I thought it could not be her. She was downright scrawny. She had curly hair where mine was straight. She was half naked in a pale pink sports bra and bootie shorts, while I would never be caught dead in such an ensemble. She looked like a shower was in order and her face was…damn, this girl was tore up. I had Comic Boy verify my assessment before I lost it. This girl looked nothing like me. The only thing we had in common was skin tone. Before you roll your eyes, this was not the last time that I was swapped for some rando brownie who looked nothing like me!

This causes me to conclude that since I am not your thing, you don’t see me. You don’t even really look at anything but my skin before you discount me. You glance my way and decide it’s a no, thus you miss any distinctive features or qualities that might make me attractive or even unattractive. Is this a type or a conscientious edit? I suggest this is an edit. I know you look at white women and decide what parts of them are attractive and which parts are not.

“I hate her red hair, but she has a hot body.”

I challenge you to not rest on laurels of ease, status quo and ignorance. Yes. I said it, ignorance.

You have every right as an American to do what you want at the end of the day, but accept what it is and don’t validate yourself by excusing it as “natural” or “not your thing”. That’s too easy. The dear Abby woman should have said, “Yeah, I know it’s ignorant, but I don’t like black men. I only date white people.” If you can’t proclaim something loudly and proudly without apologies or excuses, perhaps there is something slightly odorous about it.

Comments

antigeekess Sept. 22, 2009 @ 12:36 p.m.

Another nice one, Single.

It's an unfortunate fact of human nature that we are essentially very visual creatures. From what I understand, this is usually even more true of men than of women.

It's also true, I believe, that people tend to be attracted to those who look similar to their families or the people they grew up around. Do this person's face/eyes remind me of previous bonding experiences, and evoke that subconscious memory? It's just programming.

I can tell you that in my case, I was brought up almost exclusively around blue-eyed Caucasian people. It's probably no surprise that my ideal type looks like this:

http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/viggo-mortensen/viggo-mortensen-20060802-149617.jpg

http://knightleyemma.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/ae_face.jpg

http://www.superiorpics.com/hs/jason_lewis/main1.jpg

Yeah, I could go on and on. Am I ever going to GET one of these? Hell to the NO! Life sucks.

Here's the really effed-up, unfortunate part. I'm a fair-skinned Caucasian woman with junk-in-the-trunk syndrome. So guess who's most attracted to ME?

You got it. The bruthas. That's an attraction dynamic I'm not even going to touch, easily observable. You can call that a stereotype if you wish, but it's based on repeated experience. Stereotypes exist for a reason.

And...they're not my thing. I'm simply not attracted to them. Period. No liberal guilt, no sense of obligation to what's PC, no worries about who that may offend, no nothing.

No apologies.

Now, is it within the realm of "possibility" that I could eventually become at least 'somewhat' attracted to someone for other reasons that have nothing to do with what they look like? Sure. Anything's possible. But based on the fact that it never has happened, I'd say it's not particularly likely. I've tried to talk myself into that crap before. Doesn't work.

"To be honest, I rarely see a truly striking man."

Ditto that. Men, in general, are not particularly great-looking creatures, as opposed to women. Pretty women absolutely everywhere.

Damn lucky, those lesbians.

;)

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CuddleFish Sept. 22, 2009 @ 12:37 p.m.

Unless there's another letter to Dear Abby I don't know about, that letter was to Carolyn Hax, I remember reading it at the time.

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CuddleFish Sept. 22, 2009 @ 12:41 p.m.

"To be honest, I rarely see a truly striking man."

Ditto that. Men, in general, are not particularly great-looking creatures, as opposed to women. Pretty women absolutely everywhere.

Think it was Gloria Steinem who said something about women torturing themselves (eyebrow plucking, hair shaving and waxing, diets, high heels, etc.) to make themselves attractive to troglodytes.

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RRwriter Sept. 22, 2009 @ 2:19 p.m.

Anti- I hear what you're saying. Like I said, I respect a no apologies, say it like it is approach. It seems more responsible.

Fish-sorry for the incorrect reference. I was generally using Abby just to signify the advice column idea. I should have been more clear.

And...some troglodytes are funny, smart and scintilating which might upgrade them to attractive...I mean if they're not impossible to look at : )

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David Dodd Sept. 22, 2009 @ 2:43 p.m.

If I were young, unmarried, and so on, I would date you based on nothing more than your writing. Everything else isn't of much consequence. And if I wasn't your type (for whatever reason), then I would insist on being your friend. The value people put on skin color, hair, and so on, baffles me to no end.

Although, generally, I do agree with you about honesty. Were I young and unmarried and so on, and then I found out that you were, say, a politician, then I would have to come clean and admit that politicians just aren't my type ;)

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SDaniels Sept. 22, 2009 @ 4:01 p.m.

Hey, quit makin' your other b*s jealous, refried! :)

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SDaniels Sept. 22, 2009 @ 4:16 p.m.

"This causes me to conclude that since I am not your thing, you don’t see me."

Right on the money. "You people" all look (or smell, or eat, or drive, etc. etc.) all alike. Single, I wonder if you have delved any cultural theory dealing with race and gender. It might make you feel better to start with Edward Said (Orientalism) and work your way through to some of our more contemporary theorists of skin color and social response.

I have found comfort in reading intellectuals of every hue who deal with these matters in thoughtful ways. I should qualify that I have enjoyed lifelong white privilege, and my background is not easily read in my face or skin color, unless I am deeply tanned in summertime. It still bites like acid.

You have probably decided to stay away from threads where oblivious, joyous racism blooms its sickly pale flowers--as have I. There is nothing to teach or learn with many people, whose very identities depend on the description of and even fantasy about some 'other.'

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RRwriter Sept. 22, 2009 @ 7:15 p.m.

Thank you Refried for your always gentlemanly and enlightened point of view.

SDaniels, yes...ethnic studies and it's various theorists and literatures was my specialty in undergrad and grad. I do not, however, take comfort in its confinement within the walls of dusty libraries or echoey academic halls. I am more interested in the way the majority seems to continue to code race in bianaristic, simplistic terms without thought. I am also interested in how happy everyone is with that.

I fight to change it in small ways like bringing up issues in normative settings with rational and capable people. At least we will get to collectively question and discuss the status quo and what it represents for various groups.

Mostly, I'm just trying to speak up and provide the opinion of another in a mostly reasonable way : )

But back to AntiG for a moment....I forgot to say I disagreed with your Freudian interpretation of attraction to those who raised us. That would mean that my type is brown and as I said I have no type other than nice arms. I ahve been attracted to amny different kinds of men and I mean that in way that includes characteristics beyond race.

I believe everyone is capable of learning and growing beyond their upbringing. I would be a very different woman if I had been unable to do this.

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CuddleFish Sept. 22, 2009 @ 7:45 p.m.

Here is the letter:

CAROLYN HAX Sunday, August 30, 2009

Dear Carolyn:

Some friends of mine had been talking up this guy they thought would be perfect for me, so I finally went on a blind date with him. It turns out he's black, and while I am NOT racist and have no problem with interracial dating in general, it's not for me. I just prefer to date white guys.

I told my friends why I wouldn't be seeing him again, and they were, shockingly, horrified. Did I miss something here? I know interracial dating is more prevalent now than it used to be, but I didn't realize it was SO common that you get in trouble if you don't want to do it. I figured if I'm the one who needs a kick in the pants, you're the perfect person to give it to me. But I'm hoping you'll tell me I'm right, that no one should have to date anyone they don't want to.

Sacramento

You're right -- no one should have to date anyone s/he doesn't want to.

And your friends are right, too -- they shouldn't have to pretend they're not horrified by something they find morally repugnant.

And you're right, interracial dating is more prevalent now, but its prevalence here is the cart; the issue here is the horse.

More people date interracially because more people realize that the only alternative to being racist is to judge each person as a person.

Your decision not to date this man wasn't about his character or lack thereof, it wasn't about his sex appeal or lack thereof, it wasn't about his intellect or lack thereof, it wasn't about his sense of humor or lack thereof, it wasn't about his work ethic or lack thereof, it wasn't about shared history or lack thereof, it wasn't about his goals or lack thereof, it wasn't about his compatibility or lack thereof.

To your credit, you're owning your opinion; all you had to say was that you didn't find him attractive, and this conversation doesn't happen.

However: We're having this conversation because you didn't find his race attractive. That's what racism is.


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Joe Poutous Sept. 22, 2009 @ 8:06 p.m.

Who can really say what they will find attractive. Anyone that limits themselves to a "type" is simply narrow minded.

Life is best lived when we notice the amazing variety that is all around us.

That being said... men are pretty dumb when it comes to women. If I had to make a blanket statement of what a guys type is, it would probably be "someone that paid attention to me."

Mix that with all the emotional side of discovering someone to be with... "I was in a really crappy place and so was she, we helped each other"..

I kind of understand where you are coming from... I was a scrawny, skinny, weird little guy growing up. My family never had money but managed to send me to private school, with all the privileged kids. Bad thrift store clothes, strange lunches and parents that were religious zealots kept me in my shell.

It's not just race that can cause someone to be deemed "different".

Refried nailed it on the head. SAA, your writing has an honest quality that I find attractive.

  • Joe
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CuddleFish Sept. 22, 2009 @ 9:08 p.m.

That being said... men are pretty dumb when it comes to women. If I had to make a blanket statement of what a guys type is, it would probably be "someone that paid attention to me."

LOL Awwww, Joe! :)

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SDaniels Sept. 22, 2009 @ 9:12 p.m.

Joe wrote: "My family never had money but managed to send me to private school, with all the privileged kids. Bad thrift store clothes, strange lunches and parents that were religious zealots kept me in my shell."

Scrap the religious zealotry and remove one parent, and boy, you are describing my life, too. However, Joe, to say to this issue of growing up with racial prejudice, "see, there are other differences to suffer from," well, it's really apples and oranges. We have to respect the particularities of single's experience without trying to equate them with others.

"SDaniels, yes...ethnic studies and it's various theorists and literatures was my specialty in undergrad and grad. I do not, however, take comfort in its confinement within the walls of dusty libraries or echoey academic halls."

Oops, sorry single--I knew this about you already. But do you really think that your specialities stayed in dusty or echoey halls? Did you not, after study, go out into the world and make some changes? I have never met a student of cultural studies who did not :)

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CuddleFish Sept. 22, 2009 @ 9:19 p.m.

AG, couldn't access the last link, don't know who that fellow Jason Lewis is, or what he looks like. Matter of fact, I don't know any of those guys.

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whyigotahaveid Sept. 22, 2009 @ 9:45 p.m.

hmmm, when i began dating again after my divorce from my high school sweetheart.
i thought i would only want another just like her. but as time passed i met some very interesting people of all types. my friends and family were surprised. and what was cool about meeting these people was that we didnt know what either of us looked like . we met online and would chat for weeks before gettin the courage up to meet in person. tehn the looks didnt really matter. most fibbed about wieght but i didnt mind one bit. i had gotten to know them for who they really were. their body isnt who they are. but back to the subject about types. many many profiles . the woman would only want to speak to a man who was a cop or military . why ? dont those two careers have the highest divorce ? and many asian woman wanted only white men , why ?

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RRwriter Sept. 22, 2009 @ 10:07 p.m.

Fish-thanks for providing further insight with the original piece.

Tiki-I also went to private school and was not necessarily of the kind of privilege which the rest of the students came from. Thanks for the compliment about my writing. I appreciate it.

SD-No worries about forgetting or questioning. Ummm...as for not remaining within the halls...I don't know. I have done things that make small changes, but I am still searching for my best venue. We will see.

Why-these are good questions. I have theories about both things, but they are based upon random observations. I don't want to speak for a group who are not me so hopefully some women who are into military, or Asian women with white fetishes, will pipe in.

As for the conversation in general...we are definitely veering into the happy sunshine Care Bear world of colorblindness and rainbows. We all have prejudices. We all have preferences. We all have histories that dictate our tastes and habits. But things that may be unecessary or ignorant can be unlearned, or in a more positive light, re-learned.

I am not saying I am attracted regardless of external appearance. I am just saying that I am willing to be open and push myself to challenge those things which I might take as facts about myself in order to grow and move beyond prejudices that might prevent me from experiencing some really cool things or people. If I try it and I don't like it, then I might hold my ground.

Although, I used to hate pickles and the first couple of times I tried them I still didn't like them. I kept trying them though, because there was something about them. Now I really like pickles. I wait for them to be placed on my plate with some kind of delectable sandwich. Who knew?

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SDaniels Sept. 22, 2009 @ 10:33 p.m.

re: #13: Fish, I was too embarrassed to admit that I had yet again trouble with a link--but yes, that last one did not transfer for me, either. Don't know Jason Lewis, but I would agree about Aaron Eckhart--lately. NOT in "Your Friends and Neighbors," which makes Jason Patric into a ghoul, likewise. :)

single: "I don't want to speak for a group who are not me so hopefully some women who are into military, or Asian women with white fetishes, will pipe in."

You'd better start talking. I get the feeling we are not the most heterogeneous group here on the Reader site. :)

single and Joe: Dang! We'd better do a "I survived private school" support group--or cocktail hour.

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SDaniels Sept. 22, 2009 @ 10:38 p.m.

"We all have histories that dictate our tastes and habits. But things that may be unecessary or ignorant can be unlearned, or in a more positive light, re-learned."

Good point--though about 'relearning,' I don't see people as tabuli rasi (would this be the plural?). I try to live by example when it comes to racial and cultural tolerance and inclusivity, but take care not to sound preachy. People get up in arms, and think you are the PC police--the usual knee jerk reaction.

"I wait for them to be placed on my plate with some kind of delectable sandwich. Who knew?"

I agree. Learned long ago not to limit the palette--or the palate! :)

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SDaniels Sept. 22, 2009 @ 10:42 p.m.

Oh wait--I see what you mean. Unlearned/relearned, not relearned as in, we all once lived in a world of care bears and rainbows, until the dark unicorn barged in, carrying the troll of racial hate on its back.

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antigeekess Sept. 22, 2009 @ 11 p.m.

Daniels & Fish -

Actor Jason Lewis was Samantha's hunky model beau, Smith, on "Sex & the City." Here he is in the billboard shot that went up on Times Square:

http://blog.episode39.it/wp-content/multimedia/2009/01/absolut_hunk.jpg

And with more clothes, less hair: http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/jason-lewis-2004-vanity-fair-oscar-party-00Oqcv.jpg

My #1 was Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings), multilingual artist and reader of people like Joseph Campbell and Rilke.

2 is Aaron Eckhart from the last Batman movie, Thank You for Smoking, and a number of other films. Here he is where I first got a gander at him, as Julia Roberts' boyfriend in Erin Brockovich:

http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsE/27807-24864.gif

I have no idea whether Aaron has a brain or not. :)

But yeah, the disparity between the attractiveness levels of females vs. males is so extreme, it's totally unfair.

It's like, here I am looking for Aragorn, and all I see is little hairy-footed hobbits everywhere.

Although I'm sure there's a fetish for that.

;)

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SDaniels Sept. 22, 2009 @ 11:34 p.m.

I don't see an attractiveness disparity. Men and women have different beauty--though when we first met AG made fun of some of my choices for male attractiveness on some thread--do you even remember who I chose, AG? I don't, but 'pretty' ain't first on the list--or even a big vodka bottle :)

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David Dodd Sept. 22, 2009 @ 11:39 p.m.

"But yeah, the disparity between the attractiveness levels of females vs. males is so extreme, it's totally unfair."

But then again, it's apples and oranges, isn't it? An apple can't taste so sweet as an orange, and the dimpled peel of the Valencia can never be so smooth and shiny as that of a Red Delicious.

A man, surely, can whisper into your ear a scandalous confession of his feelings for you, a longing to hold you that makes your hair seem to rise, the shivers in the spine are uncontrollable. No man can do that to me, but the right one can do that to you.

But a woman, the subtle movements of hand and legs and head - hands, slender and sensitive, barely touching mine; lips move gracefully, eyes dancing, trapping me inside of her soul. No woman can do that to you, but the right one can do that to me.

Apples and oranges, ma'am. There's a good reason that Eve told Adam to shut up and take a bite ;)

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CuddleFish Sept. 22, 2009 @ 11:51 p.m.

Well the hair on my head rose up looking at that vodka picture!

Lord have mercy!

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SDaniels Sept. 23, 2009 @ 12:02 a.m.

refried, thanks for making a trite fruit metaphor a much juicier one ;)

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David Dodd Sept. 23, 2009 @ 12:15 a.m.

Mz. Fish, I shall remind you that there is an equal and quite dangerous corollary to my postulate:

You sit, sipping a fruity rum drink when he comes over, barely able to stand, and falls incidentally into the seat across from you. He gazes into your eyes, his are bloodshot and unable to focus. Suddenly, he vomits uncontrollably to one side, coughs, and washes his mouth out with vodka and swallows. Then he leans into your space, smelling like nothing you ever thought you would have to endure, grabs your hair and shouts into your ear above the music which is not nearly as loud as he thinks it is.

"Baby, you are so effing hot. Wanna come with me? We'll go back to my trailer and get naked! Yeeah, baby!"

Of course, it's equally as dangerous for men. Consider this scenario:

He invited her up for a nightcap. In the light, he suddenly noticed her legs, skinny and badly bruised, and the skirt was slightly torn and dirty. He fetched a bottle of chardonnay and poured.

"Do you mind if I smoke?" she asked, reaching into her purse.

"Not at all," he began, until he realized that she wasn't pulling out cigarettes.

The glass pipe, already loaded with something that resembled dried paste, inside of a small piece of foil, was barbequed and then inhaled, slowly, so that he then noticed the burn marks and blisters on her fingers. She looked at him, finally exhaling, and offered the glass pipe.

"There might be a hit in here..."

Suddenly he realized that she looked twenty years older than he did, and yet he was actually older. She then got on her cell phone and ordered another dime from someone named Wiz. It was time to call it an evening.

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David Dodd Sept. 23, 2009 @ 12:32 a.m.

Or else, the stories we WILL tell!

Blog it, ma'am. The Reader loves these stories. They sent me a nice check on account of my wonderful experiences with two lesbians (not at once, don't get the wrong idea). It was interesting, the aftermath.

The wife asks me, "Where did that check come from?"

"The Reader."

"What did you write for them?"

"A story about lesbians. Remember I told you about that time a lesbian kissed me in the Dandy del Sur?"

"No."

She got ahold of a copy. Luckily, we've been married seventeen years, and her memory (I did tell her about it, how quicly they forget!) is slightly weaker than our relationship ;)

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SDaniels Sept. 23, 2009 @ 12:33 a.m.

Did you write those yourself, gringo?

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CuddleFish Sept. 23, 2009 @ 12:39 a.m.

Okay now, this is getting a bit surreal.

You telling me you got a check for writing a story about kissing lesbians. A couple of months ago, some chick got a check for writing a story about her extramarital affair.

Hmmmm ... I stopped reading Harlequin romance novels a while back, I always thought I could do a better job writing one of them there bodice rippers for a nice chunk of change, but as it turns out to my surprise, I was a bit too modest for the pelvic exercise scenes.

On the other hand, whatever makes your paper, boo boo.

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David Dodd Sept. 23, 2009 @ 12:41 a.m.

S.D: The corollaries? Yes, and obviously very quickly. No true gentleman would serve chardonnay for a night cap. I'm embarrassed.

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David Dodd Sept. 23, 2009 @ 12:46 a.m.

Mz. Fish, mine were true stories, and there was a bit more behind them than, well, kissing a lesbian. Actually, the lesson learned in that one had little to do with romance, and more to do with the realization that you never know about people, even when you think you know about people. I was very surprised that they liked it. It's in my blog here somewhere, I would be honored to have you read it. And I'll accept judgement no matter which side of the pelvic exercise you wish to place it.

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CuddleFish Sept. 23, 2009 @ 1:08 a.m.

What's the name so I can search it, or do you have a link?

Curious now ...

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David Dodd Sept. 23, 2009 @ 1:14 a.m.

This is not my best stuff, but here you go:

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/beyond-the-big-metal-fence/2009/may/07/lesbians-without-tacos/

I'm glad the Reader liked it. And it's true, I promise. I would never publish fiction under false pretenses.

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Josh Board Sept. 23, 2009 @ 2:04 a.m.

singeandawesome...you sound awesome. And you're a great writer. I enjoyed this piece, and I hope we see more of your stuff on this website. I apologize for putting you in a funk with the piece I wrote.

But what baffles me is that you missed the entire point (sort of). The point wasn't about people having "types". To me, that's all a bit silly. I don't like red heads, but have dated a few. I don't prefer African-American women, but have dated a few. I don't prefer the look of Indian women, and have seen a few I would've dated, but I either wasn't single. Or they lived in England when I was there, and didn't think a long distance thing would work. But anyway...

The point I was making was this: IF YOU SET SOMEONE UP ON A BLIND DATE...tell them everything. Does the person smoke? Do they dress goofy? Are they black? Are they short? Do they wear too much perfume? See what I'm driving at?

So let me ask you this. If one of your friends was setting you up on a blind date, wouldn't you want to know EVERYTHING they could tell you about this person? Maybe you live in Chula Vista and they live in Oceanside, and that's too far for either of you to drive.

Now, the fact that men are more into looks than women are, is something that's more biological than anything else. Nobody can knock that. But I'll tell you something disgusting about men. I've had a number of male friends talk about blind dates with women that were either fat, or just 20 or 30 pounds overweight. And they actually thought of excuses to get out of the dates.

I've gone on three "blind dates" with women that were too heavy for my tastes. One of them was doing phone sales and called me up randomly. We started talking and making each other laugh. It never occured to me to ask her what she looked like. I picked her up in El Cajon, and she was about 300 pounds, had bad acne scars, and smelled kind of funny. No wait...she smelled fine. Her house smelled funny.

We still went out to lunch, and even Baskin Robbins afterwards. I just never called her again.

I won't bore you with the other two dates, but the same thing. I finished out the dates, made nice conversation...and even continued to talk to a few of them on the phone for weeks after (letting them know at some point, that I just wasn't interested).

Which leads me to your next point. Why should the woman on this date have to make some proclamation to the man, stating "I DO NOT DATE BLACK MEN!" What is accomplished by doing this? She feels like a racist (which she isn't). And he feels bad (for no reason). Obviously, he'll find another woman that does find him attractive, and that woman could be any number of possibilities racially, physically, whatever.

I hate to say it, but antigeek said it best with her initially post.

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Josh Board Sept. 23, 2009 @ 2:10 a.m.

OH, and SDaniels made a comment that is baffling.

She refers to threads (I'm assuming mine) that are "joyous racism". It's this same idiotic logic that people have, when they claim you're racist if you don't agree with Obama. Or if you think Harvard professor Gates was wrong in how he dealt with the cops.

SD always claims she'll "learn nothing" from conversations like this. Well, of course she won't. Just as Gates learned nothing from the experience. To him, it was the "big bad cops" yet again "harassing the black man". Instead of standing back and reflecting, and realizing he was wrong. And sure, maybe the cops got angrier than they needed to, but it all stemmed from his ignorance in how to properly handle what should've been a normal situation.

Also singleandawesome...anti wasn't saying people are ONLY attracted to people that look like their family or the ones they grew up with. But I believe studies back up what she is saying. It's the reason we always hear about women that find a guy that looked (or acted) like their father. It's not some oedipal thing, it's just the comfort or familiarity or whatever it is.

And, if you were in a funk because of what other people posted about why they weren't attracted to certain races, well you can disregard all that. If you really want to talk about the two groups of people that have it toughest in the dating world...it's: SHORT MEN. And FAT WOMEN.

Because, no matter what race you are, if you're decent looking and can hold a converation, you'll have no problem finding dates. But an overweight woman, probably won't get many looks from men. And short men, won't get many looks from women (unless they're Tom Cruise or Darren Sproles).

Now...are you out of your funk yet?

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rickeysays Sept. 23, 2009 @ 2:50 a.m.

Single, here's a bit of irony for you. I've thought before after reading your blogs that I'd like to meet you, but chances are YOU wouldn't be interested in ME, because I'm "just not your thing". People are visual. Physical attraction is important, and that all comes down to taste. Don't take it personally.

Refried once again your comments are the best part of a thread: " A man, surely, can whisper into your ear a scandalous confession of his feelings for you, a longing to hold you that makes your hair seem to rise, the shivers in the spine are uncontrollable. No man can do that to me, but the right one can do that to you."Or.......

You sit, sipping a fruity rum drink when he comes over, barely able to stand, and falls incidentally into the seat across from you. He gazes into your eyes, his are bloodshot and unable to focus. Suddenly, he vomits uncontrollably to one side, coughs, and washes his mouth out with vodka and swallows. Then he leans into your space, smelling like nothing you ever thought you would have to endure, grabs your hair and shouts into your ear above the music which is not nearly as loud as he thinks it is.

"Baby, you are so effing hot. Wanna come with me? We'll go back to my trailer and get naked! Yeeah, baby!"

Awesome.

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CuddleFish Sept. 23, 2009 @ 3:10 a.m.

Okay, I read the story, gringo. As you know, I am the newbie here, so will just say that it was quite a read.

And seeing as it is now 3 in the morning here, and I've been typing away for hours, time to lay me down to sleep. Will see you folks tomorrow, God willing and the creek don't rise.

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David Dodd Sept. 23, 2009 @ 3:21 a.m.

Mz. Fish, there is one other friend I have that uses that phrase often concerning God and the creek. Needless to say, there will be questions tomorrow ;)

Good night.

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CuddleFish Sept. 23, 2009 @ 4:09 a.m.

Okay definitely going to bed now, that way I can be semi-coherent tomorrow when the firing squad is assembled.

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RRwriter Sept. 23, 2009 @ 7:26 a.m.

Josh Board-I didn't miss your point I was just responding to what interested me most. Of course we are are all visual people. I understand that, but there have been guys that ended up being fantastic lovers who looked nothing like who I might initially be attracted to.

P.S. AntiG-Jason Lewis (Smith Jared)is so hot I want to die a thousand deaths. That is a good looking man across the board. I didn't realize who you were atlking about. However, I only like him as Smith.

Also, the conversation on race is quickly deteriorating into the uusal slump of cliched arguments. I would like to respond to the Louis Gates thing, but that will launch us into a whole new thing. If you read an interview by Gates the next day he admitted both parties had to take responsibility for the thing. He also said we all needed to move on.

Race is complex. I have been studying it for years and I am still unable to make some conclusive quantitaive judgements. I think the only way to find the truth is through open and respectful discussion where we can learn each other's stories and accept them for what they are.

P.S. Those "studies" are dubious. The things they site as causative could be correlative not actually connected to the initial thing being studied. They ahve to rule out many factors in order to get really accurate data. It also depends on who is putting out the study, how many are being sampled, method of sampling etc.

Everything I'm saying is meant respectfully, of course.

P.P.S.

Rickey-I don't know what I ahve said or implied that causes you to think you wouldn't be "my thing." I take it you don't have nice arms?

Oh, and I agree, Josh, fat people have it worse. Also, I said I was in a funk for a week, which caused me to think and then to express myself in writing. And...a funk for me just means it was on my mind.

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RRwriter Sept. 23, 2009 @ 7:48 a.m.

Dear Josh,

 I wanted to make sure that you knew I was writing off your writing because it inspired me to say something.  It was not because I was finding fault with your piece or trying to be disrespecful.

Sincerely, Single and Awesome

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Joe Poutous Sept. 23, 2009 @ 9:24 a.m.

SAA - you said that you are "a brown woman".. Do you mind if I ask what ethnicity?

You can say no... I won't take it personally.

I'm (in order of "content"): Syrian, French, Mexican Indian, German from both sides of the family, Swiss, Irish and a little mystery meat. If you had to pick what side of the family I look like it would be my dad's mother - Swiss and German.

  • Joe
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Josh Board Sept. 23, 2009 @ 9:34 a.m.

Glad to hear all that, single.

First, I'm all for having civil and respectful conversations on these topics. Unfortunatley, people like SDaniels, who we'll all agree possess a certain degree of intelligence...just jumps to "Josh must be racist" because my views don't work with hers.

She's also goes down the path of "you have nothing to teach me," when in fact, nobody really does. Because she comes across as a know-it-all, when in fact, we can all learn something from everything everyone writes.

Gates saying both parties were wrong is a step (albeit a small one) in the right direction. The problem is, both parties weren't wrong. And he never apologized at the White House.How hard would it have been to say "I realize that I was on edge and shouldn't have snapped at you." Gates could've even explained he's had cops harass him in the past (which may or may not have happened...I've asked black friends about this before, some have, some haven't...and some think they have; when they tell me the story, it turns out they haven't).

Things are not always "both parties fault". If a guy slaps a woman in the tush at a bar, and her husband asks the guy to keep his hands off his wife...the guy turns around and punches the husband and a fight insues -- would way say "both parties are at fault", merely because we see two men throwing punches at each other?

There's no doubt in my mind, had Gates shown respect to that officer...just as he commands respect in a lecture hall or classroom...the situation never escalates.

Also single, if you're going to dismiss things studies say based on race, that's fine. But you have to do that with all the stats that come across, even the positive ones. And you'd also have to wonder why comedians or other people mention certain stereo types regarding certain races. People wouldn't laugh if certain things didn't happen often. That could be a white man dancing poorly at a wedding. Or a black man talking during a movie.

I've always said people are all different. So for a person to be racist and not want to get to know someone of another race, is ignorance on their part.

But it's no reason to be upset if someone says they "dont date blacks" or they "don't date short guys" or whatever it is.

I guarantee the woman that doesn't date short guys probably wouldn't turn down a date with Tom Cruise. And the woman that won't date black guys, probably wouldn't turn down Denzel Washington or Will Smith (of course, meaning all those actors mentioned were single and not married)

And lastly, I appreciate you ending your comments above explaining that you didn't find fault with my piece. In the future, keep in mind, I have no problem with people finding fault with my pieces. So if you ever do, please, by all means, call me out on it.

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Josh Board Sept. 23, 2009 @ 9:35 a.m.

P.S. Rickey...I'll give $100 to your favorite charity if you post a photo of your arms. The curiosity is killing me. I'm picturing someone like Charlie Brown, who couldn't lift them above his head.

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SDaniels Sept. 23, 2009 @ 12:33 p.m.

Hey Josh, can you get through an argument on your own, without leaning on me, either for support or against me? Let's see...

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Russ Lewis Sept. 23, 2009 @ 11:47 a.m.

You know, Josh, this whole discussion of interracial dating got me thinking about the old song "Brother Louie" by Stories (1973) or, for that matter, "Society's Child" by Janis Ian (1967). As a song, "Brother Louie" was no great shakes and wouldn't have hit #1 without the interracial-romance story line. Which made me think: Who would give a hoot in hell about that song today? Back then, interracial dating was rare, forbidden, and downright taboo ("danger, danger when you taste brown sugar"), but today it's commonplace; a prof of mine said that X percent of American college students (I think he said over 50 percent) have dated interracially. Good thing those guys put out that record when they did.

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SDaniels Sept. 23, 2009 @ 1:21 p.m.

russl: You should have a music column. :)

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CuddleFish Sept. 23, 2009 @ 2:18 p.m.

This was in another thread from JB's Daily Crasher:

They also talked about whether you should even have that much valuable jewelry in your home, whether it's insured, and all kinds of questions us poor people don't ever have to ponder.

How's that "us poor people" jive jive with this, posted above?:

P.S. Rickey...I'll give $100 to your favorite charity if you post a photo of your arms. The curiosity is killing me. I'm picturing someone like Charlie Brown, who couldn't lift them above his head.

Either he ain't poor, or he is poor and scraping together a hundred bucks to look at a pic of arms. Lessen the Reader is picking up the tab. Or the IRS, as a business expense.

Fess up, fess up, confession is good for the soul!

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Josh Board Sept. 23, 2009 @ 4:41 p.m.

Well Fish...maybe I just love giving to charity. And looking at freaky arm photos!

When I was in radio, the dude I was doing the morning show with parked in a handicapped spot when we went out and did a live bit. He wanted our boss to pay the ticket, since it was "for the radio station." He was laughed out of the office.

If I had money, it would be more than $100 to charity! Although, if rickey is smart...he'd pick a charity that benefits people with goofy looking arms. I'm sure there's some kind of charity out there like that. There is for everything else.

Russ: I love that Louie song. Although my brother Lewis always played it on 8-Track, which got annoying. And I like that Janis Ian song, although I like her "At 17" a bit more. I caught her in town a few years ago at Acoustic Music in Normal Heights. Great show. She has a new song called "Folk is the New Black" which is amazing.

SD...I only brought you up in this thread, because you brought up my blogs and "joyous racism".

As usual, you bring nothing to the table in this debate or on interracial dating. For someone that's so book smart, you gots a lot to learn.

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Joe Poutous Sept. 26, 2009 @ 7:46 a.m.

So - how about it Josh.. is the next "Question of the Day" going to be: What features in people do you find attractive? or is irresistible a better term?

  • Joe
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CuddleFish Sept. 23, 2009 @ 5:02 p.m.

"SD...I only brought you up in this thread, because you brought up my blogs and "joyous racism".

As usual, you bring nothing to the table in this debate or on interracial dating. For someone that's so book smart, you gots a lot to learn."

By JoshBoard 4:41 p.m., Sep 23, 2009

Sorry but I have to disagree or else we ain't reading the same thread.:

"7.#7."This causes me to conclude that since I am not your thing, you don’t see me."

Right on the money. "You people" all look (or smell, or eat, or drive, etc. etc.) all alike. Single, I wonder if you have delved any cultural theory dealing with race and gender. It might make you feel better to start with Edward Said (Orientalism) and work your way through to some of our more contemporary theorists of skin color and social response.

I have found comfort in reading intellectuals of every hue who deal with these matters in thoughtful ways. I should qualify that I have enjoyed lifelong white privilege, and my background is not easily read in my face or skin color, unless I am deeply tanned in summertime. It still bites like acid.

You have probably decided to stay away from threads where oblivious, joyous racism blooms its sickly pale flowers--as have I. There is nothing to teach or learn with many people, whose very identities depend on the description of and even fantasy about some 'other.'

By SDaniels 4:16 p.m., Sep 22, 2009

17.#17."We all have histories that dictate our tastes and habits. But things that may be unecessary or ignorant can be unlearned, or in a more positive light, re-learned."

Good point--though about 'relearning,' I don't see people as tabuli rasi (would this be the plural?). I try to live by example when it comes to racial and cultural tolerance and inclusivity, but take care not to sound preachy. People get up in arms, and think you are the PC police--the usual knee jerk reaction.

"I wait for them to be placed on my plate with some kind of delectable sandwich. Who knew?"

I agree. Learned long ago not to limit the palette--or the palate! :)

By SDaniels 10:38 p.m., Sep 22, 2009

18.#18.Oh wait--I see what you mean. Unlearned/relearned, not relearned as in, we all once lived in a world of care bears and rainbows, until the dark unicorn barged in, carrying the troll of racial hate on its back.

By SDaniels 10:42 p.m., Sep 22, 2009"

Those posts all appear to be on point and there were others that spoke to other points brought up in this topic thread.

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RRwriter Sept. 23, 2009 @ 5:50 p.m.

I wasn't saying that the situation was both parties fault. In fact, I think it's quite a leap that you assume disorderly conduct from the professor as if the police never make errors. If we were arguing about the Gates situation, I would be on his side due to the information I have seen about the case and what I know about racial politics in the U.S.

On to the stats. I did not deny only stats on race. I think all data needs to be sourced in order to be relevant to a strong argument. You can site studies all you want without proving its validity and maintain making weak arguments. Studies show that 20% of written and verbal arguments are weakened by lack of substantiated supporting evidence (I made that up).

What else....Oh, and I can say whatever I want about people saying they just don't date black people or short guys. Once your opinion is made public it is subject to the criticism of others who are listening. Or should I censor myself so that their opinion reigns supreme and only one side of things is consistenly represented?

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RRwriter Sept. 23, 2009 @ 5:54 p.m.

Oh and Tiki- I'm Sri Lankan ethnically, but American born and raised.

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antigeekess Sept. 24, 2009 @ 11:37 p.m.

Single wrote:

"But back to AntiG for a moment....I forgot to say I disagreed with your Freudian interpretation of attraction to those who raised us..."

Well, that's why I said families OR people we grew up around. Were you exclusively around brown folks? Because I was raised by a couple of hermits. Hardly ever saw anybody who wasn't white with blue eyes for at least the first few years of my life -- which are the important ones, for bonding.

"I believe everyone is capable of learning and growing beyond their upbringing. I would be a very different woman if I had been unable to do this."

It's not really a matter of "learning," Single. It's a matter of visceral response. I can try to BS myself into being attracted to some little round brown guy, but I know better. No hobbit-with-a-heart-of-gold is going to make my pupils dilate and my IQ drop about 50 points. Even "tall, dark, and handsome," really doesn't do it for me.

It's pretty much like trying to intellectualize oneself out of liking vanilla ice cream better than chocolate.

"De gustibus non est disputandum."

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antigeekess Sept. 24, 2009 @ 11:49 p.m.

Daniels opined:

"I don't see an attractiveness disparity."

Oh come ON, Daniels. I don't see how you can type that with a straight face. It's perfectly possible -- especially in San Diego -- to spot dozens of pretty women in a day. And most of them are with a guy that looks like he should be under a bridge somewhere, scaring the bejeezus out of billy goats.

"Men and women have different beauty--though when we first met AG made fun of some of my choices for male attractiveness on some thread--do you even remember who I chose, AG?"

Wasn't Woody Allen one of them? LOL. Elvis Costello, PeeWee Herman, Bill Nye the Science Guy, Steve Buscemi, Steven Hawking, Screech from Saved by the Bell, Erkle...

I forget the rest of the list. :)

"I don't, but 'pretty' ain't first on the list--or even a big vodka bottle :)"

But neither one hurts. (And if it does, there are products for that.)

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antigeekess Sept. 25, 2009 @ 12:01 a.m.

Reeefred quoted meeee: "But yeah, the disparity between the attractiveness levels of females vs. males is so extreme, it's totally unfair."

And then offered: "But then again, it's apples and oranges, isn't it? An apple can't taste so sweet as an orange, and the dimpled peel of the Valencia can never be so smooth and shiny as that of a Red Delicious."

More like apples and whatever these things are.

http://abigailblake.com/sugarapple/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/ugly-fruit.jpg

:)

"A man, surely, can whisper into your ear a scandalous confession of his feelings for you, a longing to hold you that makes your hair seem to rise, the shivers in the spine are uncontrollable. No man can do that to me, but the right one can do that to you."

Unicorns can shoot moonbeams out of their eyes, too. :)

"But a woman, the subtle movements of hand and legs and head - hands, slender and sensitive, barely touching mine; lips move gracefully, eyes dancing, trapping me inside of her soul. No woman can do that to you, but the right one can do that to me."

I think you have a secret career as a writer of romance novels that none of us knows about, gringomantic.

"Apples and oranges, ma'am. There's a good reason that Eve told Adam to shut up and take a bite ;)"

LOL. And that was a "good" idea, was it?

;)

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antigeekess Sept. 25, 2009 @ 12:11 a.m.

Fish eyed something that I myself have noticed:

"You telling me you got a check for writing a story about kissing lesbians. A couple of months ago, some chick got a check for writing a story about her extramarital affair."

Uh-huh. I was just making the same observation to refried in another thread.

Not only does it sell. It wins.

And it doesn't seem to matter if it's written well (as is always the case with our gringo), or...

...not.

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David Dodd Sept. 25, 2009 @ 12:18 a.m.

It certainly was, AG, smartest damned thing Adam ever did. But me, as a romance author? I have chronic faulty protagonist syndrome in everything I write. Us men are faulty, leaky, and hopelessly incomplete. How on Earth would you perfect, beautiful, wonderful women ever accept any one of us bastards?

I've tried, ma'am, truth be told. The biggest complaint? Too much plot, too much character development, and not enough sex.

Story of my freaking life!

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antigeekess Sept. 25, 2009 @ 12:24 a.m.

"Too much plot, too much character development, and not enough sex.

Story of my freaking life!"

Aw, gringo, I'm sorry. LOL.

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