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The two maritime terminals operated by the Port have an estimated annual economic impact between $1.7 billion and $1.8 billion, says the San Diego Institute for Policy Research. The terminals provide 19,298 jobs that on average pay 28 percent more than the region's private sector median pay. Longshoremen working at the Port earn an average of $93,674. Dock foremen make $161,636 a year. The idea to "double-deck" the 10th Ave. terminal would hurt maritime trade and would be "detrimental to our region's economy and a poor way to make major land use decisions," says Steve Francis, chairman of the institute, and candidate for mayor in the last election. Promoters are pushing for a vote in favor of the idea in the November election.

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Comments

JF Aug. 20, 2008 @ 10:35 a.m.

Holy cow... don't tell Johnny Vegas that high school educated folks are making that kind of money. A dock foreman makes about the same as the fire chief.

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 20, 2008 @ 11:45 a.m.

They have more education than a FF does I bet.

Also, the FF and cops's benefits (yes, including the "make more than when you worked" pensions) increase their compensation by a factor of 100%.

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Don Bauder Aug. 20, 2008 @ 11:56 a.m.

Response to post #1: It looks like Johnny is going to jump on this right away. Best, Don Bauder

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Don Bauder Aug. 20, 2008 @ 11:58 a.m.

Response to post #2: It seems to me that the maritime workers are represented by a powerful union. I don't know whether the dock workers have big pensions. Best, Don Bauder

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JF Aug. 20, 2008 @ 3:52 p.m.

Gee Johnny, your buddy Aguirre says that firefighter benefits are only .57 of salary. You must be so much smarter than him. Want to provide a link, or any kind of proof to back up your claims? A dock foreman without benefits still makes more than a fire battalion chief with benefits.

And I'm guessing that longshoremen are not state licensed medical professionals.... so sorry your education bit is (as usual) off by quite a bit.

Wait... didn't you claim that you'd go away if someone posted a blue collar non-college job paying more than $100K. I think we have a winner!

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Don Bauder Aug. 20, 2008 @ 7:36 p.m.

Response to post #5: We have a donnybrook here. Time to step in the ring, Johnny. Best, Don Bauder

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 20, 2008 @ 9:05 p.m.

Gee Johnny, your buddy Aguirre says that firefighter benefits are only .57 of salary.

JF, the Contra Costa Times just posted the full compensation of ALL county employees, including FF's and Sheriff's. CC has the exact same retirement that San Diego (and every other gov in CA.) has.

The PENSION contribution ALONE was 70% of salary-that was not counting the PAID medical, that was NOT counting the 4 weeks of PAID vacation, the 13 PAID National holidays, the 12 PAID sick leave days. These all cost money. Big money.

I am pretty sure that when ALL the benefits I listed are added up they total as much as base pay.

I don't want to look for the link right now, but will find it later and post it.

So the full benefit package for government is so out of whack that it is insane.

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 20, 2008 @ 9:08 p.m.

Here you go Don, if you can make it over to Nebraska Thursday evening you can meet Warren Buffet and David Walker for the world premier of I.O.U.S.A.;

http://www.iousathemovie.com/

Tickets for the I.O.U.S.A.: Live with Warren Buffett, Pete Peterson & Dave Walker in-theatre event on Thursday, Aug. 21st at 8:00 p.m. ET / 7:00 p.m. CT / 6:00 p.m. MT / 7:30 p.m. PT (tape delayed) are available at presenting theatre box offices and online at www.FathomEvents.com.

http://www.iousathemovie.com/press/meeting/

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 20, 2008 @ 9:17 p.m.

Almost a year ago, the California Supreme Court ruled that salaries of government employees, including police officers, are a public record and must be available upon request to "ensure transparency." The ruling ended a Contra Costa Times lawsuit filed in 2004 against the city of Oakland after the city refused to release the names and salaries of its employees. The Oakland Police Officer's Association and other employee unions fought to keep the information private.

(Sheriff's repsonse)

The Deputy Sheriff's Association received a legal opinion on listing individual benefits, particularly health care, Bickert said. They sent the opinion to county counsel and the county administrator. If that information is not removed from the site, the union may take legal action, he said.

(I guess the Sheriff's Association did not see the CA SP CT's ruling making these items PUBLIC RECORD)

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_10194074?nclick_check=1

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_10194074?nclick_check=1#document

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JF Aug. 21, 2008 @ 6:40 a.m.

Gee Johnny, aren't you the one who keeps saying that we can't afford benefits like that here? That we're not Orange County or LA or Contra Costa County? Well you're partially correct. We don't have benefits like that here. Don't you think Aguirre would post that if we did?

Oh, and the longshoremen don't pay a dime for their medical. Plus they have no deductible and $1 prescriptions. Plus they have retirement, a fund that pays them if they don't work and an employer funded 401K. That's way better than city of San Diego employees. About 20 times better on the prescription front.

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Don Bauder Aug. 21, 2008 @ 6:45 a.m.

Response to post #7: It will take awhile, but sooner or later the public will realize that public sector pay and pensions are excessive. By the time the truth sinks in, it may be too late. Best, Don Bauder

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Don Bauder Aug. 21, 2008 @ 6:48 a.m.

Response to post #8: My guess is that movie will awaken a lot of people. Government spending and debt are out of control. The next movies should dramatize two other looming tragedies: 1. Consumer spending and debt are out of control, and 2. Debt-financed gambling on derivatives is out of control. Best, Don Bauder

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Don Bauder Aug. 21, 2008 @ 6:50 a.m.

Response to post #9: Transparency is essential. Despite all that has happened in this decade, San Diego has not yet learned this lesson. Best, Don Bauder

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Don Bauder Aug. 21, 2008 @ 6:52 a.m.

Response to post #10: a forum on longshoremen pay and fringes would be enlightening. Best, Don Bauder

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 21, 2008 @ 8:17 a.m.

Oh, and the longshoremen don't pay a dime for their medical. Plus they have no deductible and $1 prescriptions. Plus they have retirement, a fund that pays them if they don't work and an employer funded 401K.

JF, I can tell you much more about longshoremen than you could ever dream of.

The largest port on the west coast-Long Beach- two years ago was accepting applications for and would be hiring 1,500 longshoremen over 2 years. The base pay was $$18 an hour-which is $38K per year, or about 68% of the $55K a FF or cop STARTS at (we wont even go into the "step" increases that come every 6 months).

Now the facts. They had OVER 500K people apply for those jobs. Out of the 1,500 ONLY 750 of them were open to the public, the other 750 went to members of the current longshoremens family and friends (yes, HALF of the 1,500 jobs went to "insiders").

So do the math-a $38K job had 500K applicants, your odds of being hired were at best 667 to 1, yes, for every 667 applicants there was one job opening.

Yet according to you JF this City (and state) cannot find even 1 applicant for the many jobs the FD and PF need filled despite the pay being twice that of longshoreman.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm...................

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 21, 2008 @ 8:20 a.m.

Gee Johnny, aren't you the one who keeps saying that we can't afford benefits like that here? That we're not Orange County or LA or Contra Costa County? Well you're partially correct. We don't have benefits like that here.

San Diego has identical benefits.

The biggest contributing cost factor are the 3%@50 pensions-which are identical.

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Don Bauder Aug. 21, 2008 @ 12:58 p.m.

Response to post #15: Yes, there is a lot of information about longshoremen. Some of it is not pleasant. Best, Don Bauder

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Don Bauder Aug. 21, 2008 @ 1:26 p.m.

Response to post #16. San Diego has identifical benefits and can't afford them. Best, Don Bauder

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anony_mous Aug. 21, 2008 @ 2:36 p.m.

15:

In what sense do you consider Long Beach he largest port on the west coast? Are you referring to acreage, cargo volume, jobs, renenue generated? Please be more specific.

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Don Bauder Aug. 21, 2008 @ 4:14 p.m.

Response to post #19: I'll let Johnny tackle that one. Best, Don Bauder

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 21, 2008 @ 4:26 p.m.

In what sense do you consider Long Beach he largest port on the west coast?

Cargo port.

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anony_mous Aug. 21, 2008 @ 5:55 p.m.

21

As a quick perusal of their respective websites illustrates the Port of Los angeles is actually larger. It encompasses more acreage, handles more containers with more tonnage with a higher cargo value the Long Beach. The little error is really no big deal.

From the July, 29,2004 PMA press release: "The agreement provides for the addition of 3,000 new “casual” workers, who are covered by the labor agreement between the PMA and ILWU but are not registered members of the workforce. The agreement further provides for the promotion of about 1,000 existing casuals into the registered ranks."

In 2004, because of record volumes during an early onset to the traditional peak summer shipping season and at the insistance of of the ILWU, the PMA decided to hire 3000 workers for both the L.A. and Long Beach ports. This was done via postcard lottery and they received over 300,000 post cards instead of the 25-30,000 they had expected. However these were NOT longshoreman jobs. They were part time, non-union casual dock worker positions with a starting wage of $20.66, no health or retirement benefits or guarentee of hours. About 1000 of those who were hired did have the chance to become card carrying members of the ILWU. But let's take a look at those union longshoremen. According to the ILWU, in 1998 the average wage for longshoremen working at least 2000 hours was $99,016. As of June 30, 2007 the basic straight time wage was $30.68 for workers with 4001 or more hours of experience, or about 2 years. Newhires start at $22.11. Currently, Longshoremen have healthcare benefits with no monthly premiums and $1.00 prescription drug benefits. Under the terms of the new 3 year contract agreed to in principle last month, and expected pass in a coastwide vote, longshoremen will receive a wage increase of $1 an hour in the first year of the contract, and increases of 50 cents an hour in the second and third years. That amounts to an increase of 7.8% over three years and brings the union base wage to $27.68 an hour. Now what about those pensions. The pension for longshoremen who retire beginning this July 1 is $80 per month for every year of service, to a maximum of $2,800 a month. This increases over the life of the contract to $95 per month per year of service, to a maximum of $3,325. And for those who retired before 1993 pension increases that will raise their benefits from as low as $40 per month per year of service to $65. Let's not forget the longshore 401(k) fund. The contract calls for contributions to be made to the accounts of each registered longshoreman in the amount of $1.00 per hour for each hour paid to the employee up to a maximum of 2000 hours. I don't know Johnny. When you add it all up, it sure sounds like a $100,000 blue collar job to me. Since all Pacific coast longshoremen are members of the same union, that obviously applies to San Diego as well, so alot of $100,000 blue collar San Diego jobs as well.

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JF Aug. 21, 2008 @ 6:04 p.m.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm...................

1.) Starting pay for firefighters is $38K, not the $55K Johnny claims. That's $13.19/hr, based on the 56 hour week we work.

2.) Step increases come every year, not every six month as Johnny claims. And there are only three step increases in total. After that pay is static unless there is a negotiated raise or a promotion.

3.) I never said we couldn't find one applicant. I said we couldn't find enough qualified applicants, in part due to competition. Perhaps more people applied for the longshoreman jobs because more people were qualified for that position. I'll ask again, was the Port of Los Angeles hiring at the same time and offering twice as much pay? The city of Los Angeles is doing just that to our hiring.

4.) San Diego does not have identical benefits to the cities or counties named above. The city's own salary survey showed that. Yes, the retirement benefits are the greatest part, but health benefits and vacation days add a lot too. We're way behind on those benefits.

Yes, things that make you go hmmmmm. Like why Johnny can't seem to get the simple facts straight.

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 21, 2008 @ 8:12 p.m.

San Diego does not have identical benefits to the cities or counties named above.

3%@50 is the same all over the state, and that is the MAIN benefit, the jobs both provide medical and dental and therefore the benfits are identical.

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 21, 2008 @ 8:16 p.m.

This was done via postcard lottery and they received over 300,000 post cards instead of the 25-30,000 they had expected.

Actually the count was over 500,000 or a half million. Or 20 times the 25,000 quoted in your article of what was expected.

What was not referenced in the article is that half the 1,500 jobs were reserved for family and friends of current employees. That left 750 open to the pubic.

This for a "part time" job. Why part time, because it is impossible to get a fulltime job because no one quits.

So if the longshorement can get over half a million applicants for 750 PART TIME jobs then I think the SDFD can get plenty of people for their $200K per year fulltime jobs.

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Don Bauder Aug. 21, 2008 @ 9:02 p.m.

Response to posts #22-#25: I'll sit on the sidelines while you folks battle this one out. Best, Don Bauder

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anony_mous Aug. 21, 2008 @ 10:50 p.m.

Sorry johnny, you're just ignorant of the facts. It was 3000 jobs: http://www.pmanet.org/?cmd=main.category&id_category=143 Pacific Maritime Association announces pact with ILWU to augment workforce -- 3,000 new “casuals” to begin work on docks http://www.pmanet.org/?cmd=main.content&id_content=2142590598

And it was over 300k not 500k: Lottery Is Port of Entry for Applicants http://articles.latimes.com/2004/aug/20/business/fi-portjobs20

The jobs were part time because at the time longshore officials estimated they are short 600 to 700 workers each day, due to the record freight volumes during that period result of increasingly robust trade with Asia. These workers were not guaranteed full-time work, but were eligible to work whenever the need was sufficient. By agreement 1000 of these jobs were cycled thru to registered Union jobs while the rest were considered temporary

The 750 "insider" jobs you refer to is also incorrect. The 3000 applicants chosen were culled from 2 "lottery" drawings. The lotteries included well over 300,000 postcards from the public and as many as 8,000 industry recommendation''cards(the pre-addressedindustry recommendation'' cards were mailed to union members and shipping officials several days in advance of newspaper ads detailing the hiring process to the general public).

All of the approximately 8,000 cards from the maritime industry went directly into the final drawing, while the cards from the public went through two drawings. The first drawing whittled the cards down to a number of public cards equivalent to the number of industry recommendation'' cards. All of the industry cards were entered into the final lottery. Those equal sets of cards, about 16,000, were then be combined in the final drawing for the 3,000 positions. There were no "reserved" insider jobs; all cards had to go thru the final draing. The only guarantee was that if you returned anindustry recommendation'' card you would make the final drawing along with an equal number of cards from the public.

You can also find an extensive list of articles in Long Beach Press Telegram Archive http://www.presstelegram.com/archivesearch

I guess you could also call the President of ILWU Local 29 in National City. I'm sure he could answer any questions you might have.

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JF Aug. 22, 2008 @ 10:40 a.m.

3%@50 is the same all over the state, and that is the MAIN benefit, the jobs both provide medical and dental and therefore the benfits are identical.

Johnny, I'll try this slowly. Retirement and benefits are different for each municipality. Each union or association negotiates their own benefit package.

Just because they all have "medical and dental" doesn't mean that the individual receives the same benefit statewide. Many fire departments across the state provide fully paid medical and dental packages to their employees. The city of San Diego does not. The vast majority of San Diego employees have to pay out of pocket for their medical benefits. They have to pay even more out of pocket for dental and vision. In other words, SD does not PROVIDE dental and vision coverage, they make it available for purchase.

Likewise, retirement is not the same across the state. State of California fire employees have 3% at 50 and many fire departments do, but not all. Most fire departments cover the employee's contribution to their retirement system in full. The city of San Diego does not. This alone results in about 10% lower pay for San Diego firefighters.

See, if all fire departments paid the same and had the same benefits then there would be no problem recruiting. However, currently SDFD employees make less up front, pay more into retirement, pay more into their medical coverage and pay more for housing. You may wish to hire folks from out of state, but why would they come to San Diego when they can make twice as much an hour up the road?

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anony_mous Aug. 22, 2008 @ 1:53 p.m.

JF According to the LAFD web page, the starting wage ranges from 46,729 to 64,686. Acccording to the UFLAC local 112 web page, LA firefighters receive the following benefits based on member only enrollment Medical: choose between HMO, $429.00 per month with no member cost and PPO, $529.00 per month with no mwmber cost. Dental: Choose between DRD $71.00 per month with no member cost. Concordia Flex PPO Plan $56.00 per month with no member cost. Concordia DH plan $55.00 with no member cost. A new hire can also purchase supplemental voluntary life and add coverage, example $200,000 of each for $9.00 per month. Not bad. UFLAC provides ltd insurance through the California Association of Professional Firefighters. The premium for this plan is currently $10.25 bi-weekly. It's a little tough to compare pension benefits since LAFFP lists those on their website and apparently San Diego doesn't. I did notice however that LA voted to to remove a definitive ending date for their DROP. So if I was going to start a career as a firefighter, I could go to LA and start at $46,729 and receive at a minimum of $5800 in health benefits at no cost and not live in a city whose cost of living is 50% above the national average. And if I am an experienced firefighter and have a family it's even better. Or I could go to San Diego and get paid less, pay my own insurance and spend alot more to live. Gee, let me think about it. I realize it's a bit over simplified, but I can see your point. The same thing has been happening around the bay area for a couple of years. Firefighters and law enforcement have bee leaving some smaller departments to for jobs in San Francisco. Higher pay and better benefits is the reason.

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Don Bauder Aug. 22, 2008 @ 3:50 p.m.

Response to posts 27, 28 and 29: Again, I will let you people battle this one out. Best, Don Bauder

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JF Aug. 22, 2008 @ 5:08 p.m.

Trestles, About 10 years ago I received a solicitation from the San Francisco FD. Top step firefighter/paramedic pay was $99,000/year. Yes, that was a decade ago.

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anony_mous Aug. 22, 2008 @ 5:20 p.m.

Not really much of a battle, Don. Everyone, well almost everyone, agrees that San Diego is one of the most expensive places to live in the country, and wages have not come close to keeping pace the the cost of living. That's why San Diego is such a great tourist destination. It's a great place to visit and drop some dollars but way out of reach for most people to make the move full time.

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anony_mous Aug. 22, 2008 @ 5:27 p.m.

31

I remember reading earlier this year during the Vallejo debacle of those type of wages in San Fran. I also remember that a couple of law enforcement unions up there have minimum staffing guarantees in their contracts, virtually assuring the senior members who want it huge amounts of overtime. As long as the city can afford it, I don't see that as a problem. It seems OT is a cheaper alternative than a than hiring more people, as long as understaffing doesn't creat safety issues. I can see why so many people left the smaller dartments.

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 22, 2008 @ 5:56 p.m.

It seems OT is a cheaper alternative than a than hiring more people, as long as understaffing doesn't creat safety issues.

1) No gov entity (as in taxpayers) can afford to pay $200K for blue collar jobs.

2) As long as benefits cost as much (and more) than base pay it is cheaper to pay OT-and also a sure fire way to go into BK.

The 3%@50 pension scam, pension alone & nothing else, costs 70% of base pay. Add in the other "benefits" and it totals base pay.

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 22, 2008 @ 5:58 p.m.

Johnny, I'll try this slowly. Retirement and benefits are different for each municipality. Each union or association negotiates their own benefit package.

And JF, I will try to keep this just as simple for you. The 3%@50 is the same everywhere-there is NO DIFFERENCE.

That pension, as stated above, costs 70% of base pay to fund. So that alone is the biggest factor in a benefit package for those that have it. Nothing else even comes close.

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 22, 2008 @ 6:05 p.m.

The 750 "insider" jobs you refer to is also incorrect. The 3000 applicants chosen were culled from 2 "lottery" drawings. The lotteries included well over 300,000 postcards from the public and as many as 8,000 industry recommendation''cards(the pre-addressedindustry recommendation'' cards were mailed to union members and shipping officials several days in advance of newspaper ads detailing the hiring process to the general public). ====================

Once again Tressles does his "googling" searches and comes up with the wrong answer. Why am I not surprised???

There were 1,500 jobs at Long Beach, there were OVER 500K applicants. They picked 750 from the 500K open applicants and picked another 750 FROM INSIDERS.

That is a fact. I will have to go find the info for you, but unlike you I am not going to spend 4 hours on Google to prove you are once again wrong.

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JohnnyVegas Aug. 22, 2008 @ 6:10 p.m.

All of the approximately 8,000 cards from the maritime industry went directly into the final drawing, while the cards from the public went through two drawings.

Even using your numbers-ALL 8000 INSIDER applications went into a lottery where 3000 jobs were picked from 16000, so INSIDERS had a 50% chance of being hired-so 50% of the jobs would go to INSIDERS-, now compare that to the 500K who were OUTSIDERS-I already did the math earlier it was 667 to 1....Hmmm........starting to sound like a Government hiring process to me.

It was fixed, just like government jobs are fixed.

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anony_mous Aug. 22, 2008 @ 6:26 p.m.

Again moron, it was 300k not 500k and 3000 jobs not 1500. That came straight from the PMA and the ILWU. There was a 50% CHANCE they would be drawn just as their was a 50% CHANCE of cards from the general public being drawn. In other words EVEN ODDS for the public once the made it to the drawing. This was an agreement between the union and the PMA. And exactly why shouldn't they have a say in who is being hired. By the way here is the link for you again from the PMA website 3000 jobsnot 1500. Face it johhny you are not right all the time.
http://www.pmanet.org/cmd=main.category&id_category=143

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Don Bauder Aug. 22, 2008 @ 9:18 p.m.

Response to post #38 and #39: OK, Johnny, you have been called a moron. Are you going to fight back? Best, Don Bauder

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